tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Fri Jul 02 16:57:13 2004
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Re: ghelmeH mu'tlhegh'e' Sayu'
- From: "QeS lagh" <[email protected]>
- Subject: Re: ghelmeH mu'tlhegh'e' Sayu'
- Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 09:56:30 +1000
- Bcc:
ghItlhpu' SuStel:
>With respect to Okrand and DloraH, one of them has got something wrong.
>The question words are not relative pronouns. What relative pronouns do in
>English is what relative clauses with {-bogh} do in Klingon. In English,
>the pronoun "who" (in its accusative form "whom") is used to relate a
>relative clause: "The officer whom I saw." In Klingon, {-bogh} does this.
>{yaS vIleghbogh}. The word {'Iv} has nothing to do it.
I'm still not quite sure where I stand on QAO, but I was giving DloraH's
message so Dar'Qang could have a source for your previous message.
That being said, I do tend to think that even Okrand would avoid question
words as relative pronouns. The headless relative {Dajatlhbogh vIyajbe'} on
KCD might provide evidence for that: Okrand used a headless relative clause
rather than attempt a QAO, which would have been expected in that situation
if QAO were legal (something like ??{nuq Dajatlh 'e' vIyajbe'}). Maybe
that's relevant, maybe not.
>The point is that there is no absolutely right answer; say what you mean,
>and don't worry too much about a translation formula.
luq; jIchup neH.
jIchuppu':
>{mu'tlhegh vIjatlh DaneHbogh yIngu'}
jangpu' SuStel:
>Hmm. Something about this one bothers me. I think it'd have to be
>something like *{mu'tlhegh vIjatlhbogh DaneHbogh yIngu'}. In your
>sentence, it looks like you're asking to identify {mu'tlhegh vIjatlh},
>which isn't a noun phrase, rather than a {mu'tlhegh}. "Choose the
>{mu'tlhegh vIjatlh} that you want." It doesn't work.
Interesting. This goes on to the idea of nested relative clauses, which I
think you and I have discussed before. Looking back at my original
suggestion, I can see how it might look wrong. Perhaps it would be better if
I used a different verb:
?{mu'tlhegh vIjatlh 'e' Dachupbogh yIngu'}
Identify the sentence which you suggest that I say
I wasn't trying to use {mu'tlhegh vIjatlh} as a noun phrase, but as the
referent of a pronoun {'e'} in the next sentence (but {neH} doesn't use
{'e'}, so probably a bad example). Although, the second one looks strange
now, too. Okay, point conceded.
Savan.
QeS lagh
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