tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Tue Jan 06 13:34:14 2004

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Re: KLBC boghmo' 'IHrIStoS malop

Steven Boozer ([email protected]) [KLI Member] 

Philip:
> >>But I suppose "They gave presents to them" could also mean "They gave
> >>presents to one another".

SuStel:
> >>I really think this is just a case where English can do something that
> >>Klingon can't.  There's no shame in that: it's the way languages are.
> >>ghunchu'wI' is absolutely right when he uses a different verb: /nobmey
> >>DItam/ "We exchanged gifts."  Don't insist on a direct translation when a
> >>recasting will do the job right.

Voragh:
> > Just to show that there are rarely any simple answers, here's our one
> > example of {tam} "substitute, exchange" - used together with {nob} "give"!
> > - in SkyBox S33:
> >
> > boq lucherDI' tlhIngan wo' romuluS Hov wo' je So'wI' cham Suqpu' tlhIngan
> > wo. chaq tampu'. chaq romuluSnganpu'vaD pIvghor cham lunobpu' tlhInganpu'.
> > Cloaking technology was gained through an alliance with the Romulan Star
> > Empire, possibly in exchange for warp drive technology.
> >
> > Literally: "When the Klingon Empire and the Romulan Star Empire established
> > an alliance, the Klingon Empire acquired cloaking device
> > technology.  Perhaps they exchanged.  Perhaps the Klingons gave warp drive
> > technology to the Romulans."
> >
> > Interestingly, {tam} doesn't seem to have an object here.  It would make
> > more sense to put {chaq tampu'} after the sentence about warp technology,
> > but that might just be me.  If you do move it to the end, however, you
> > could translate it transitively as "they (i.e. the Romulans and the
> > Klingons) exchanged them (i.e. cloaking and warp technology)".

SuStel:
>/chaq tampu'/ could easily be translated as "Perhaps they had made an
>exchange."  The explanation of that exchange then follows.

I do like your suggestion, however my notes say that the gloss of {tam} is 
"substitute" (TKD, Eng. to Klingon side), not "make an exchange".  The idea 
of "exchange" comes from this very card.  (Is the definition of {tam} 
expanded in KGT?)  A small distinction, to be sure, but possibly important 
since "substitute" and "exchange" are - or can be - transitive, but "make 
an exchange" is only intransitive.

OTOH, your suggestion shows how Okrand finessed "possibly in exchange for 
X":  by breaking it up into two sentences.  (I'm assuming that SkyBox sent 
Okrand the English text of the cards - which he couldn't alter - and he 
translated it using existing vocabulary where possible.)

>A lack of an object can be read as a general or indefinite object.  This is
>mentioned by Okrand in TKD, and is shown in some examples.  /SeymoH QeH/
>"Anger excites."  Excites whom?  You COULD say, but the proverb doesn't make
>it explicit.  /tlhIngan SeymoH QeH/ "Anger excites a Klingon" is a good
>sentence.

True enough, except that {chaq tampu'} lacks both an explicit object as 
well as subject.

And to add fuel to the fire, we also have {mech} "trade" available but 
without any examples of how it's used.  Is this "exchange, swap" or "engage 
in trade (as an occupation)" or both?



-- 
Voragh
Ca'Non Master of the Klingons

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