tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Sat Aug 07 11:36:43 2004

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Re: S31: {maq} vs. {'e' maq}

...Paul ([email protected]) [KLI Member] 

On Sat, 7 Aug 2004, QeS lagh wrote:
> So, you mean something like this?
>
> jatlh <ghoS tlhIngan SuvwI'> ('e') maq.

No, I mean like:

<ghoS tlhIngan SuvwI'> jatlh.  maq.

"He said <the klingon guard is approaching>.  He proclaimed it."

> That could work. But putting in {'e'} starts to raise some issues about the
> possibilities of indirect quotation, and I don't think MO's ever told us how
> indirect quotation in Klingon works, or even whether it's possible. With
> {'e'}, it just sounds too much to me like saying {ghoS tlhIngan SuvwI' 'e'
> jatlh}. That's why I'd avoid it, but make your own decision about that.

Actually, seeing it in your example. I realize that I would be more
inclined to simply use /'e'/ and /maq/ this way:

ghoS tlhIngan SuvwI' 'e' maq.

"He proclaimed that the klingon guard was approaching."

The problem is not so much *in*direct quotations, but direct quotations.
This last example is an indirect quotation, and I'm fairly confident it's
correct Klingon.  But how it differs is that it does not indicate a
specific phrase.  The reality could be, "he" had actually proclaimed
"Guard Ho!", but the sentence merely indicates what was communicated, not
what was said.

Remember, /jatlh/ and /ja/ are *exceptions* to the rule for /'e'/ (and
/net/, really).  Without examples of /maq/ being used for that kind of
direct quotation, I would actually be more surprised to see /'e'/ missing.

Actually, reading back on page 67 of the TKD, the book merely says that
"verbs of saying (say, tell, ask, etc.)" don't use /'e'/ and /net/.  So
the question we should be asking is, "is /maq/ a 'verb of saying'?"

I would be inclined to say it is, even if we don't have canon for it.
What's the reference for where /ja'/ and /jatlh/ are the "only" verbs this
works for?  Or is it simply that those are the only two we have examples
for?

Another thing I just noticed in the TKD on this topic -- the parts can
appear in either order:

ghoS tlhIngan SuvwI' jatlh
jatlh ghoS tlhIngan SuvwI'

According to p67, either one is correct...  Which really kinda sucks,
because if they were traditionally treated more like objects, I could say
something like "If you use /'e'/, it's an indirect quotation, but if you
don't, it's a direct quotation."

For example (and this is all pretty much me wishing):

ghoS vIjatlh  == *I said "He's coming."
*ghoS 'e' vIjatlh  == *I said that he's coming.

This, if only it could be true, would work really nicely to distinguish
direct from indirect quotations.  But rereading page 67 really messed that
up.

...Paul

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