tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Thu Apr 08 08:23:53 2004

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Re: Hov = star ?

David Trimboli ([email protected]) [KLI Member] [Hol po'wI']

From: <[email protected]>

> ghItlh David Trimboli <[email protected]>:
> > "Sun" may be treated as a proper noun or a common noun.  It makes as
much
> > sense to talk of "the sun of Kronos" as it does to talk of "the Sun" on
> > Earth.
>
> Thats true, but I can just imagine a Klingon on Earth:
>
> Klingon> ::points at the sun:: nuq 'oH pongDaj'e'?
> Human> Sun..
> Klingon> Ahh, Sun 'oH pongDaj'e' ::notes it down in his little
dictionary::

Klingon> ::points at the sun:: Dochvetlh mu' yIngu'!
Human> Sun.
Klingon> toH, "sun" 'oH mu''e' vIlo'nISbogh.  ::notes it down in his little
dictionary::

Your example does nothing to show that a Klingon must necessarily think of
"sun" as a proper noun.

> Having moved from one country to another, I've actually been through this
> experiance many times. I've pointed at plants, birds, bugs and food and
said,
> "What's that?". I've gotten back the name and used it, even if it's the
thing's
> name also a common noun. To me it makes perfect sense for us to use Sun as
a
> proper noun when talking about the Star in our solar system...

When you go around pointing at things and asking what it is, you probably
expect common nouns most of the time.  If you point at a tree and you get
the answer "tree," are you going to assume it's "Tree"?  Of course not.

So what makes pointing at that yellow bright thing in the sky any different?
That there's only one?  Ah, but if you're a Klingon tourist visiting Earth,
there isn't just one, is there?  There's the one from your planet, and
there's the one that's here.

> > How often do you look up at a clear sky and comment, "Sol is out"?
>
> Being an amateur astronomer (and someone who had to learn latin) I've
actually
> done this a number of times, especially when I'm around geeky friends of
mine.
> Sol is the Latin name for the Sun, so once upon a time people did say,
"Sol is
> out" all the time...

I knew someone was going to bring this up.  I explicitly said (you removed
it) that I was talking about using "Sol" in English.  In English, "Sol" is a
proper noun only.  In Latin, so far as I can tell, it is a common noun when
referring to the sun (though I suppose it might be a proper noun too).
These two languages use the word differently.

People long ago speaking Latin didn't say "Sol is out."  I don't know how
"The sun is out" would be translated into Latin, but I guarantee it wouldn't
use "-- is out" (those are English words).

I dare you to go to a non-astronomer on a sunny day and tell him (without
pointing), "Sol is out."  If he doesn't question your sentence in any way,
I'll concede that it's a common sentence.

> Also we do say Solar power, Solar system, so Sol does have
> a place in morden English.

All this demonstrates is some of English's ancestry.  "Sol" comes from
Latin, "sun" comes from Old English.  The two words are NOT used the same
way in Modern English.

> [. . .]

My point here isn't to disprove your idea (that proper nouns may be the way
Klingons refer to the star which their current planet is orbiting).  I'm
trying to show that your belief is only one of many equally-plausible
possibilities, and we just don't know how Klingon does it.  Saying "It makes
sense" doesn't mean anything, because a lot of possibilities make sense.

SuStel
Stardate 4270.0

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