tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Tue Jun 17 12:34:17 2003
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Re: considering honor... again
Voragh:
> >In other cases, the noun {batlh} "honor" may well overlap with the English
> >idea of "glory". Certainly to a Klingon, honor and glory in battle are
> >inextricably linked. In fact, I've always believed that {batlh} is
> >something greater than mere {quv}, another noun meaning "honor", which I
> >view as closer to reputation or fame. (YMMV!)
Klingon Warrior wrote:
>I really liked what you said about "batlh" being more meaningful than
>"quv", Voragh! Although, with me, I have always thought "quv" meant more
>than mere "batlh." :) Why "batlh" over "quv"?
We've discussed this before on the List but, briefly... Okrand has never
gone into the difference between the two, but look at how these nouns are
used in canon:
{batlh} "honor" (n.)
According to Klingon tradition, the first bat'leth was forged by Kahless
the Unforgettable, the founder of the Klingon Empire, from a lock of his
hair dipped in molten lava. Kahless created the name {betleH}, meaning
"sword of honor". The word {betleH} is actually an archaic form. In
contemporary Klingon, {sword of honor" would be {batlh 'etlh}, though
this phrase is used almost exclusively as a translation or explanation
of the older word, {betleH}. (KGT 59)
yIntaHvIS qeylIS'e' lIjlaHbe'bogh vay' batlh 'etlhvam chenmoHlu'pu'
this sword of honor descends from the time of Kahless the Unforgettable. S8
batlh potlh law' yIn potlh puS
Honor is more important than life. TKW
batlh qelDI' tlhIngan, lumbe'
A Klingon does not postpone a matter of honor. TKW
{quv} "honor" (n.)
One accepts a challenge ({qab 'ang} [literally, "shows face"]) in
order to prove one's honor ({quv tob} [literally, "test honor
conclusively"]). Though any perceived attack on one's honor may
prompt one to issue a challenge, in one traditional form of duel,
the goal is specifically for a man to "win the favor of a women"
({vuv be' 'e' baj} [literally, "earn that a woman respect him"])
by competing with another man. (KGT 67ff)
Often, the word is used with no overt subject, as if an exclamation:
{natlh} ("It is objectionable," or "That is shameful"; literally, "It
consumes"). Nonslang counterparts, none of which carries the impact of
{natlh}, might be {quv Hutlh} ("lack honor"), {qab} ("be bad"), or
{Do'Ha'} ("be unfortunate"). (KGT 155)
quvwIj DatIchpu', tera'ngan
[You have insulted my honor, Terran.] PK (untranslated)
batlhHa' vanglu'taHvIS quv chavbe'lu'
One does not achieve honor while acting dishonorably.
tlhIngan quv DatIchDI' Seng yIghuH
When you insult a Klingon's honor, prepare for trouble.
quv Hutlh HoHbogh tlhIngan 'ach qabDaj 'angbe'bogh
A Klingon who kills without showing his face has no honor.
'ang'eghQo' quv Hutlhbogh jagh neH ghobtaHvIS ghaH
Only an enemy without honor refuses to show himself in battle. TKW
SuvwI' quvlIj yIqel!
Consider your warrior's honor! ("Day of Honor" postcard [canon?])
I admit that there is a certain overlap. One can, for instance, consider
{qel} either {batlh} or {quv}. But when you look at all of the examples
together you'll notice that {quv} is used in possessive phrases by people -
{tlhIngan quv} "a Klingon's honor", {SuvwI' quv} "warrior's honor" (N.B.
the individual {SuvwI'}, not the general term {vaj}) - or even with
possessive pronouns - {quvwIj} "my honor", {quvlIj} "your honor". {batlh}
is never linked with people in a noun-noun phrase. Furthermore, a person
can achieve honor {quv chav}, lack honor {quv Hutlh}, one's honor can be
insulted {quv tIch} or tested/proved {quv tob}. Again all {quv}, never
{batlh}.
This is why I tend to translate {batlh} as "Honor" (with a capital H) and
{quv} as honor (with a small H), or even as "fame, reputation, 'face'". In
other words, {batlh} is the general goal of Klingon society, or the
Platonic value, if you will; {quv} is one's personal honor, something more
manageable which is under a person's control. With this in mind, these two
quotes may make a bit more sense:
quvwIj DatIchpu', tera'ngan
[You have insulted my honor, Terran.] PK
batlhHa' vanglu'taHvIS quv chavbe'lu'
One does not achieve honor while acting dishonorably.
Now how this fits in with compound nouns like {la'quv} "Supreme Commander",
{ra'ghomquv} "High Command" and {yejquv} "High Council" I'm not sure --
except to point out that these all refer to people or groups of people.
One of these days I would like to hear Maltz discuss the topic in detail,
but in the meantime perhaps we can take comfort in the fact that we're not
the only ones to be confused over the details of Klingon honor. Remember
this exchange from DS9 "In Purgatory's Shadow":
GARAK: "It's the honorable thing to do."
WORF: "You use that word, but you have no idea what it means."
GARAK: "Perhaps not, but you do."
--
Voragh
Ca'Non Master of the Klingons