tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Sun Jul 13 10:55:44 2003

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Re: Is the language too bound for its own good? (was Re: Klingon - Terminology Databases (IMHO))

There are a couple of different ways of looking at this issue, from within 
the fiction and outside the fiction.

Within the fiction, we are learning to speak the language of Klingons.  They 
exist on another planet far away.  We can't go there and learn it; all we 
can do is learn with what we have, and get occasional information from Maltz 
(though his Federation interrogator).  Our goal is to speak the language 
accurately, so that if we do meet a Klingon he can understand us.  In this 
context, we can't change the language to suit our needs.  We don't want to 
speak "Terran-Klingon."  If we start adding words, we're not speaking 
Klingon any more.  (As for a lack of vocabulary, there's no reason that 
Klingon should have words for Terran concepts such as "dog" or "truffle" 
since they don't exist, we assume, on Kronos.)

Outside the fiction, this is a language created for a TV show.  Its legal 
status is unclear, and though we believe Paramount would not win a legal 
contest, practically speaking noone has the resources to challenge them. 
Regarding Okrand, he is still an active and willing participant with the 
community.  If he were ignoring us or didn't care about Klingon then I'd be 
more interested in figuring out how the KLI can continue to develop the 
language, but this isn't the case.

Whichever perspective you prefer, I disagree with the statement "You can't 
use it in daily life, especially with having little to no words about daily 
items and too much confusion about pronunciation and grammar.  We don't 
learn it because it's not allowed to be anything more than a fake language."

First, there is no confusion about pronunciation.  For most practical 
purposes, there is no confusion about the grammar.  And even the vocabulary 
is sufficiently rich to handle most anything you want to say, as long as you 
don't expect Klingon to have a word things like "taco."  There's nothing 
wrong with Klingon lacking these words.  What's the English word for "taco"? 
We don't have one, so we just say "taco."  You don't need a Klingon word for 
it.

Every day, the speakers on this list prove that you can use this language. 
Just come to a qep'a', and see how people who have put in the effort to 
learn the language can speak it.  The problem here is your friend's 
perception, not any shortcoming of the language itself.  Adding grammar and 
vocabulary that make it easier for an English speaker to learn to speak 
Klingon will not do anything to improve or advance the Klingon language 
itself.

If you need to say "coffee-girl," what's wrong with saying {qa'vIn-be'}?  Of 
course you can say this.  I may not understand what you mean, but I'm not 
sure what "coffee-girl" means in the first place.  Will you find it in TKD? 
Nope, but that doesn't mean we need to suddenly complain that Klingon is a 
"fake" language and try to change the grammar/vocab.  We play games like 
this with the language all the time, and we understand each other just fine. 
It's usually people who don't know how to use the tools of the language who 
complain that it doesn't have the right tools, because they don't match the 
tools they're used to using for English.  Learning Klingon is about learning 
to use new tools (grammar/vocab), and it's not easy.  I would have more 
respect for the opinion of your friend who complained about Klingon's lack 
of expressiveness if he could already use Klingon well enough to participate 
in a simple conversation (or pass the Intermediate/Advanced KLCP exams). 
Until he can do that, he hasn't earned the right to complain about what 
Klingon lacks.

--
d'Armond Speers, Ph.D.
[email protected]


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Klingon Warrior" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, July 12, 2003 5:44 PM
Subject: Is the language too bound for its own good? (was Re: Klingon - 
Terminology Databases (IMHO))


> I 100% agree about making Klingon more "open."  It does feel like our 
> hands are tied behind our back and that we have no control over the 
> language.  To me, this is ridiculous.  We speak and write and dedicate so 
> much of our lives to this artificial language...why do we have no 
> authority?  Okrand, to me, is a blessing!  He really is...I think he is 
> not only a genius (especially with making all the little intricacies of 
> tlhIngan Hol) but a wonderful human being as well.  The thing is, having 
> our knowledge only come from "Maltz," who readily speaks and gives us 
> information, is Hogwash!  We have far too many words that are not present 
> in Klingon...words that we sometimes desperately need...and too much 
> guessing involved.  In my humble opinion, the language cannot expand and 
> grow and prosper and exist in its fullest potential if it is not allowed 
> to.  One time I was sitting down with my Klingon House in our monthly 
> meeting and I had brought up tlhIngan Hol...I was disgusted that !
>  no one
>  knew anything about the language.  "How can a Klingon House no nothing 
> about tlhIngan Hol?" I asked them...and one of the members said to me, 
> "Because the language is too impractical.  You can't use it in daily life, 
> especially with having little to no words about daily items and too much 
> confusion about pronunciation and grammar.  We don't learn it because it's 
> not allowed to be anything more than a fake language."  That has stuck 
> with me for a very long time, and I have set out to prove them wrong!  One 
> day, I want my children understanding and speaking Klingon as though it 
> were Hebrew in a Jewish family.  One day, I want to have all the 
> vocabulary and grammar rules down so cold that I can speak with ease. 
> This can't happen when it seems that the most common of sentences have to 
> be avoided or assumed because we don't have enough information about it. 
> The idea about us "humans" just not knowing enough about Klingon culture 
> and whatever else is getting quite old.  I regar!
>  d myself
>  as a Klingon anyway!  So why is it that us "Klingon's" still don't know 
> enough about the language.  If nothing else, the Federation and the Empire 
> have been allies for some time now...we should be unbound and allowed to 
> make this language as big as I know it can be.  This language, if everyone 
> knew how worth-wild and practical it really is, can be spoken around the 
> world with greater numbers than what it is now.  And of course, the 
> question now is...if Okrand isn't the only ruling body who makes things 
> "cannon" (though I think that has to stop also...this idea about things 
> being cannon or not is old, too.  If I were to call someone a 
> "coffee-girl," I hate the fact that someone would say, "You can't say 
> qa'vInbe' because it's not in TKD."), then who is to say that things are 
> cannon?  A group?  An organization?  A vote?  From who?  Contest winners? 
> Dedicated enthusiasts?  People with a greater knowledge and greater time 
> spent on the language?  Whatever it is, I think somethi!
>  ng has to
>  happen soon...before we're all left without a prayer of expanding the 
> Honorable Language.
>
> [email protected] wrote:
> >Does anyone else out there feel that Klingon should be made "Open Source"
> and >open
> >to a regulatory body such as the KLI to develop further, or do you all 
> >think
> that any
> >developments should only come from Mark Okrand?
>
> I agree that tlhIngan Hol should be a growing language and at times, the
> language should change to monitor the changing of times. In any language, 
> the
> vocabulary, meanings and even syntax changes with each new generation. Why
> should tlhIngan Hol be any different? Further, we should begin at some 
> point to
> move away from Mark Okrand being the supreme authority on everything 
> tlhIngan
> Hol. After all, there will be a day when Okrand go on to fight battles 
> along
> side his honored ancestors. Where will we be then? As a child is weaned 
> off of
> mothers' milk, so we should be weaned off of Okrand. The community should
> become the authority on the changes made to the language on consensus; to
> include new vocabulary, and even the syntax used when constructing 
> sentences and
> words with prefixes and suffixes. That is the only way the language will 
> ever
> survive. IMHO, like he said.
> -veS joH
>
>
>
>
> Klingon Warrior
> taHjaj wo'!
> Darren M. Slade
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
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