tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Sun May 13 01:14:27 2001
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RE: *Paramount* chaw'
> -----Original Message-----
> From: chris [mailto:[email protected]]
> Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2001 11:16 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: *Paramount* chaw'
>
...
> David Trimboli wrote:
> > As for what words
> > are "necessary," that depends on what you want to say, doesn't it?
>
> Doesn't this go without saying? As I've said before, I'm a Scouter, and
> one of the first things I wanted to do was write something about a
> camping trip. I quickly gave up because it ended up being largely
> English since I could find no words for camping, tent, axe, fishing,
> knots, marshmallows, etc. What's the point of speaking Klingon if half
> your words are English. I could have used incredibly convoluted Klingon
> explanations for the words but that seemed terribly pedantic. Note
> however, that I did not presume to make up words for these myself. Had
> someone else done so, I may have chosen to use them, or I may not have.
> I am only a lonely peon, and Marc Okrand is God. I don't think a true
> Klingon would have bothered with either possibility. However, I *DID*
> notice that at least three of you who have been flaming me boasted of
> having had their own made-up words approved by Okrand. Apparently you
> are better people than the new chap who wants to make up his own word.
> How dare he?
I hope you are sufficiently self-aware of your own attitude enough to
understand why you are being flamed. You beg for it as your self-righteous
testosterone drips from so many of your words. You consider yourself to be
right and reasonable and everybody else is wrong, stodgy or otherwise, well,
wrong.
Lawrence was really embarrassed when he realized that he had screwed up in
building what he thought was like a compound noun, but turned out to
actually be a noun-verb combination in {yejHaD}. Okrand did him a favor and
saved face by offering to make the word real.
Mark Shoulson came up with {'I'} as a joke that came back years later to
bite him. Someone put up an argument similar to yours and he was arguing
against it saying, "So, if we start making up our own words, how is someone
out there who buys a copy of TKD and learns the language supposed to know
that the word {'I'} means 'armpit'?" It was improvised and he never expected
to see the word again. Over a year later, peHruS cited {'I'} as "armpit"
saying he didn't remember the source except that he knew it came from
Okrand. After a couple weeks of bickering over the word, ghunchu'wI' found
the original reference in the archive and we all thought it was hilarious.
We made this discovery just before a qep'a', so when Okrand showed up, we
shared the joke with him. He laughed and then looked at us with a perfect
dead-pan expression and said, "Well, you know there really is a word for
'armpit', don't you?" Gullibly, we all looked at him, slack jawed and shook
our heads "no" and asked what it was. He grinned and said, "{'I'}."
Someone else came up with the word {'arlogh}. I don't remember who.
Meanwhile, it made so much sense to me and filled one of the gaps in
expression I could not find a replacement for, so I pushed for it on the
wish list for two or three years before Okrand made it official in his post
answering my question on the MS mailing list he once rarely participated in
for how to ask "What time is it?"
At another qep'a', Krankor, who has the most beautiful Quch of all of us
(though it is suffering some wear and tear these last couple years), pointed
out that with the Klingon forehead and their appreciation for pain, they
really need a word for "noogie". Okrand agreed and we got {nughI'}.
I know at least two different women who think they were the one that got us
a word for "cleavage".
As a sort of honor for half a dozen of us who have promoted the language for
years, we were declared {matlh jupna'} "Friends of Maltz" and each of us was
granted the right to ask for one word from Maltz. Okrand took our list and a
few months later gave us rich descriptions and explanations of our new
words.
The point here is that the vast majority of words are from Okrand by his own
inspiration. Every rare now and then, one of the rest of us comes up with an
idea he thinks is charming and on whim, he might decide to "make it so".
That is radically different from one of us just making stuff up and
promoting it as a word to use without Okrand's consent.
> > It IS used: by Klingons.... But there ARE no real Klingons
>
> Your response becomes confusing here because you argue both sides as it
> pleases you. But it seems to boil down to this:
>
> > To maintain the fiction that what we're speaking is a real
> language spoken
> > by Klingons, one MUST agree that only Marc Okrand has access to
> a Klingon
> > informant. Otherwise we'll all begin speaking a different language.
>
> Yes, we are suspending disbelief to study this noble race. Why then
> should we believe that only Okrand has access?
The only survivor of Kruge's crew in ST3 was Maltz. He was captured. He
became an informant, consulting with one Federation linguist named Marc
Okrand. No other Klingon will reveal the secrets of the language (making the
name {matlh} all the more amusing, since he is the least loyal of all to his
race's language's secrets). Apparently, Maltz won't talk to anyone else.
> Surely we star voyagers
> may once in a while come across Klingons using unfamiliar words. (At
> least three of you have, by your own admition.)
You are twisting a fact you apparently do not fully understand. It will not
carry the weight you are placing on it. You have already repeated this too
many times and nobody was impressed by it the first time. Repeating it more
likely won't win any converts.
> It's okay if not
> everyone understands it. Okrand even admits that some dialects are
> somewhat unintelligible to others across the Empire. If the new guy
> discovers a word, more power to him. If you choose not to use it, more
> power to you. Call it a dialect of an unimportant House.
Call him a cult of one.
> Will Martin wrote:
> > if you think you are the first...to suggest revolution...
>
> I'm not trying to start a revolution, Will. I'm not even trying to
> propose a new word. But even Cherokee and Turkish have continued to
> evolve despite systemization and legislation.
As does Klingon. Marc Okrand can make changes to it any time he chooses.
> > Yes a name is a word. But it does not need to really mean
> > anything. Worf, Martok, Gowron, etc. etc. etc.
>
> But they *DO* mean something. When you say 'Worf' you are referring to
> a very specific thing and everyone on this list understands exactly what
> that word means. When I say 'qoraQ' I am also referring to a very
> specific thing, but only a select few may instantly recognize what this
> word means. Others may be able to deduce from context what type of
> thing it refers to, but perhaps not which specific one. Perhaps a
> name's derivation is lost in the mists of time, but it still means
> something today. Try writing a story without names.
Most of my stories lack names. If you can't recognize the difference between
a proper noun and a generic word, then you are likely to remain confused
about a great many things in dealing with language. Two people named "Worf"
have nothing in common except the name "Worf". The name is nothing more than
a symbol for a specific entity. If we restricted all nouns to this
one-to-one representation, we'd need a much larger vocabulary than we make
do with as it is.
> QIS
charghwI' 'utlh