tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Fri May 11 23:33:13 2001

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Re: *Paramount* chaw'

>Maybe not, but I have seen many posts on this list that include words
>not in TKD or KGT.  That makes understanding them quite difficult.  I
>bought both books to help me translate and learn the language, but alas,
>they are apparently incomplete.  Lo and behold, the word list at kli.org
>cites an additional seven (7!) sources of words.

Okrand made up a bunch of words after TKD and KGT...they're listed at 
kli.org for easy reference. We didn't make them up. They're just not in the 
books.

And lo and behold, all seven of those sources listed are based on what 
Okrand has said, either from first-hand accounts, or things Paramount 
released based on what he told them.

>   If the fellow in question invents a good word that I find useful, I
>may indeed use it.  However, If the new word is unnecessary or
>unacceptable I would dump it in a heartbeat.  For example, I cannot
>bring myself to use the impossibly corny (but Okrandian) chang'eng for
>pair, and rewrite my sentences as necessary to avoid it.

So don't use chang'eng. I don't use a lot of English words that I find 
corny. But that doesn't mean I can make up a word to use instead. I use an 
already established synonym, and if there is no synonym, I just force myself 
to use the corny word.

>This leads me to a question I've never considered before and don't
>remember reading about.  Is tlhIngan meant to be only a historical
>language?  Or is it meant to be used?  When Worf wants to discuss his
>more Terran experiences with a fellow Klingon, do they revert to English
>and admit that tlhIngan "has no word for that particular concept?"
>Undoubtedly, ancient Klingon WAS unspoiled by weak and inferior Terran
>concepts, as Okrand has laid it out.  But as Klingons and humans began
>to interact more and more, don't you think the Klingons delighted in
>insulting and disparaging human ideas and other such flaws? At first
>they may have borrowed words, but surely the purists would have
>protested the corruption of their language and proposed new Klingon
>words instead. Indeed the French today are doing just this, rebelling
>against the influx of English words like pizza, blue jeans, and computer
>and inventing their own.

There have been a few Klingon words that came from English words; qa'vIn, 
for instance. And if there isn't a Klingon word for it yet, we just use the 
English word, and perhaps explain it the first time it's used, in Klingon. 
Actually, since most of the people here speak English, we usually don't 
bother with the Klingon description. Maybe Okrand will come up with one 
later. We do that in English too. For example, let's say I wanted to use the 
German term Schadenfreude in a work; Schadenfreude doesn't translate easily, 
but basically it means "the malicious pleasure of someone else's misery." 
Now, I can either explain it the first time I use it, so everyone knows what 
I mean when I use it later; or I just use the phrase "the malicious pleasure 
of someone else's misery" every time I need to. But I don't make up a word, 
like, "misery-pleasure" or "plisery" (pleasure + misery) and use that. If I 
did, I would explain it first, and the reader would probably know that I 
just made it up to use in this one work, and that it was a substandard word 
used only as an example. They wouldn't go around repeating "plisery" to 
people.

>One final note, we were all encouraged a few months ago on this list to
>adopt a Klingon name if we so desired, even if it did not conform to
>tlhIngan Hol spelling conventions or even its alphabet.  We didn't have
>to clear it with Okrand first.  (Nor, I'm sure, would he want us to.)
>And if a name is not a word, I'll eat mine.

There's a big difference between making up proper nouns and regular nouns. 
Even in English. Writers and people who need pseudonyms make up names all 
the time, which may or may not comform to English style. But they don't send 
it off to the Oxford English Dictionary people to get it confirmed. (The OED 
is considered the defining book of the English language; it's got every word 
and grammar rule in its twenty-some-odd volumes. Quite a read.)
If you mention a proper noun to someone, like if I said, "Masterson walked 
down the stairs," they don't ask "What the heck is a 'Masterson'?" They just 
figure "Masterson" is the name of someone. They might not know who the 
person is, that 'Masterson' refers to, but they know that it's a person's 
name. They don't need to know what the actual meaning of the word 
"Masterson" is to see what I'm talking about. They just need to know that it 
refers to someone.
On the other hand, you can't do that with regular nouns. You can't just make 
one up and have people understand you. If I said, "Some norblippit tore up 
my garden!" you would have no idea what a norblippit is. Is it a dog? Goat? 
Child? Man? Car? Hurricane? The Pope? I could tell you, and then you'd get 
it, but then it would be just you and me. I can't walk down the street and 
start saying, "Get over here, you norblippit!" People would look at me 
funny. If "norblippit" somehow became well known and used throughout the US, 
it would still be considered substandard English even though everyone knew 
it, because it hasn't been recognized as acceptable.
The same with Klingon. If you make up a word, even though everyone might 
know it, it's still bad Klingon. Your circle of pals might know it, but no 
one else would. If Okrand decides it's a good word, and adds it, then it's 
no longer bad Klingon, and I can also gloat because Okrand used one of my 
words. :) But until then, it's still widely-used-but-bad Klingon.
There are some languages where making up a non-dictionary word is 
acceptable. Lojban, for one, has a rather complex method of doing so, and 
German, as far as I can tell, is rather lenient with compound nouns. But 
English--and Klingon--are not any of those languages.

To summarize bluntly: it's not our language to screw with.
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