tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Thu Jun 28 00:16:05 2001

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RE: make him do something



I'm assuming both by the absence of a KLBC and by the quality of the Klingon
written here that you are not intending this to be reserved for the BG.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Quvar valer [mailto:[email protected]]
> Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2001 2:12 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: make him do something
>
>
> nom DuSaQ vIghoStaHvIS mu'tlheghmeyvam vIqon.
> Here some phrases I was thinking about when I was hurrying to school.
>
> nom vang vay' DaneHchugh vaj DamoDnISmoH.
> If you want someone to do something quickly, you need to make him hurry.
>
> vay' DamoDmoH DaneHchugh vaj ghaHvaD "tugh" yIjatlh.
> If you want to make someone hurry, you gotta say "tugh".

More than likely, this word order is a little off. I'd suggest either of the
following:

vay' DamoDmoH DaneHchugh vaj ghaHvaD yIjatlh <<tugh>>.

vay' DamoDmoH DaneHchugh vaj <<tugh>> ghaHvaD yIjatlh.

Remember that with a direct quotation, the quotation is not the direct
object of the verb of speech. The sentence containing the verb of speech and
the quotation itself are jammed next to each other, but they are
grammatically independent of each other, and either can come first. In most
examples in canon, the sentence with the verb of speech comes first. I think
this stylistically is a little easier to understand, and it reduces the
temptation to do what you did, which is mistakenly treat the quotation as if
it were the direct object and place it between an indirect object and its
verb, the verb of speech.

> tugh vangnISchugh vay' qul DIr DaSopnISmoH.
> If someone has to act soon, make him eat fire skin.

You are touching on a slight point of controversy here, and I think you
missed your mark. Basically we only have a couple canon examples of {-moH}
being used on transitive verbs and a number of us think those examples are
not pretty. I find them easier to accept than many people here, but the
revulsion to the apparent grammar that Okrand has illustrated is strong
enough that I usually avoid the construction when possible simply because a
lot of people don't like it, and there usually is a work around. Anyway, to
follow Okrand's example more accurately, it should be:

tugh vangnISchugh vay' vaj ghaHvaD qul DIr DaSopnISmoH.

You can't use the prefix shortcut because the indirect object is third
person, and that only works when the indirect object is first or second
person. In your case, both the direct and indirect objects are third person,
so there's nothing in the grammar to make it clear that you are using the
prefix shortcut, so it looks like you are saying, "If someone must act soon,
you must cause fire skin to eat."

In this case, to avoid this, I'd just change the verb:

tugh vangnISchugh vay, vaj yIje'. qul DIr yIlo'.

There are other workarounds, too. I'm tired. This is just a stab at it.

> Are those all correct? I am confused with the last one (chaq jIDoy' neH),
> How do you tell someone to tell somebody else to do something?
>
> qar'a' Hoch? mumISmoH mu'tlhegh Qav.
> chay' loD vIra'moHlaH?

bItlhobnIS neH.

> rIn,
>   Quvar.

charghwI' 'utlh



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