tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Fri Feb 02 13:58:01 2001
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Re: Grammar musings for the day - poH mu'mey
pagh wrote:
: The first thing I thought of was "I don't have the 11 minutes to watch it",
vIbejmeH wa'maH wa' tup vIghajbe'.
vIbejmeH wa'maH wa' tup tu'lu'be'.
: which led to an internal debate about the order of numbers and <-meH>
: clauses. If a <-meH> clause modifies a noun, and I want to add a number to
: that noun, does it go before or after the <-meH> clause? If I'm talking
: about four boy's knives, is it <loS ghojmeH taj> or <ghojmeH loS taj>? I
: can't come up with a strong rational argument either way, but the second
: just seems wrong.
Good question. My first guess is that Okrand might respond that it depends on
what you're trying to say:
loS ghojmeH taj = 4 learners-knives
i.e. a special type of knife
ghojmeH loS taj = 4 knives for learning
i.e. 4 knives (of any sort) which you're using to learn something. E.g. an
apprentice chef being trained to make the slits in animal limbs needed to
extract veins (cf. KGT 97). (Perhaps the head chef doesn't trust him not to
break his good, heirloom {SIjwI'}.)
I'll give this some more thought, but here's an example from canon that might
be helpful:
tera' vatlh DISpoH cha'maH loS bong QongmeH qItI'nga Duj tI'ang
ghompu' DIvI' 'ejDo' 'entepray'.
A sleeper ship of this [K'Tinga] class, the T'Ong, was encountered
in the 24th century by the USS Enterprise. (SkyBox S15)
Notice the placement of {qItI'nga}: {QongmeH qItI'nga Duj} "a K'tinga(-class)
sleeper-ship" as well as the apposition with {tI'ang}.
Another thought: You might have to recast the Klingon. Okrand came up with
{SopmeH pa'} "dining room, eating room" ("literally room in order to eat or
room for eating") as an example on st.klingon (6/97), but later used
{SopwI'pa'} "mess hall" in KGT. You might be able to recast {ghojmeH taj} as
{ghojwI' taj} or {ghojwI'taj} when counting. Not that it answers your
question, but it's not always predictable whether you use {-meH} or {-wI'} when
modifying a noun with a verb (e.g. {tIjwI'ghom} "boarding party" instead of
*{tIjmeH ghom}), or whether you use no suffix at all (e.g. {Saqghom} "landing
party" instead of *{SaqmeH ghom} or *{SaqwI'ghom}).
: The other thing I noticed is that despite the slew of nice new measurement
: words we got in KGT like <juch> and <ngI'>, we don't (yet) have a word for
: "have a duration of". This means that to say something is 11 minutes long, I
: have to say something like <much bejlu'taHvIS, qaS wa'maH wa' tup>. I
: suspect there is a verb meaning "have a duration of" out there somewhere,
: but perhaps time is treated differently.
Another good question. All we have is {nI'} "be long, be lengthy (duration)"
nI'be' yInmaj 'ach wovqu'
Our lives burn short and bright. (Anthem)
yIn nI' yISIQ 'ej yIchep
Live long and prosper! (RT)
poH nI'
a long time. KGT
nI' ram
The night is long. KGT
maj, nI' ram
Good, the night is long. KGT
nI' jajvam
This day is long. (st.klingon)
nI' DaHjaj
Today is long. (st.klingon)
and {ngaj} "be short (in duration)"
ngaj ram
The night is short. KGT
maj, ngaj ram
Good, the night is short. KGT
but no canonical way to quantify them other than splitting the statement into
two clauses:
nI' much; wa'maH wa' tup 'oH.
The show is eleven minutes long.
or
ngaj much; wa'maH wa' rep neH qaS.
The show lasts only eleven minutes.
Splitting a thought into two clauses is a perfectly good Klingon method, as in
countless similes: e.g. {ngo'; QI'tu' rur} "old as Qui'Tu" or {qan; QI'tu' rur}
"He/she is as old as Qui'Tu."
Another method is hinted at in Okrand's 2/98 st.klingon discussion on how to
say "it's brown":
Doq 'ej Qaj wuS rur
be orange/red and resemble kradge lips.
("The lips of the kradge are presumably a particular shade of brown.")
This method yields
nI' much 'ej wa'maH wa' tup qaS.
ngaj much 'ej wa'maH wa' tup qaS.
Hmm... another thought on measuring time. We have the proverbial expression
wa'maH cha' pemmey wa'maH cha' rammey je
twelve days and twelve nights
which is an idiom for "a long time") given in KGT (p. 121). I don't have my
KGT with me now, but does Okrand use this expression in a sentence?
Well, that's enough for now. jIvumqa'nIS!
--
Voragh
Ca'Non Master of the Klingons