tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Mon Jul 03 19:59:39 2000
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Re: Deixis and direction
jatlh charghwI':
> >I have to respond to this, if for no other reason, to point out that an
> >"oblique" noun is simply a noun used for any grammatical function other
than
> >subject of the verb. SuStel seems to be using it to mean "any noun used
for
> >some function other than subject or object of the verb", but that would
be
> >his personal interpretation of the word and not the actual meaning of the
> >word in grammatical context.
jatlh ghunchu'wI':
> My dictionary says that the grammatical term "oblique" refers to something
> other than nouns in "nominative" or "vocative" cases. A "nominative" noun
> is acting as the subject of a sentence; a "vocative" noun is used in
direct
> address. So, strictly speaking, SuStel *is* using the term in a somewhat
> improper sense.
My dictionary also includes the accusative case as one of the cases which
isn't part of an oblique noun. Nominative equals subject, accusative equals
direct object. We're not considering vocative nouns here. This is the
dictionary definition which led me to believe the term "oblique" would do
well for non-subject, non-object Klingon nouns.
But I am in no way in love with the term. I considered renaming it to
"Other" noun, and I see by going through some old issues of HolQeD that
others have done this, and Krankor has also called them "header" nouns. A
rose by any other name . . . .
> However, I agree with his use completely in this context. The subject and
> object of Klingon sentences appear in essentially the same "case", and are
> distinguishable only by the position in which they appear.
Klingon nominative and accusative cases are not inflected in any way; the
only way to determine which case a noun is in is to look at its position in
the sentence. I'm not aware of any exceptions to this. Thus, they're
hardly distinct cases at all.
> Other nouns
> usually get Type 5 suffixes, the equivalent of case markings, and the ones
> that don't receive such suffixes are pretty well established as either
> exceptions (e.g. {naDev}) or as members of certain sets (e.g. {ben}).
As Krankor recently pointed out in his column, there's no reason that the
oblique noun MUST be one of these established categories, though it usually
is, and it's more difficult to understand if it isn't. I found his insight
into this to be quite intriguing.
I also find this rather interesting:
DaHjaj lopno'mo' vaS'a'Daq puqvaD betleH nob loD.
Today at the Great Hall, because of the celebration, the man gives the child
the bat'leth.
/loD/ has the nominative case.
/betleH/ has the accusative case. As I agree, these two are basically the
same in Klingon. There is no inflection.
/puqvaD/, /vaS'a'Daq/, /lopno'mo'/, and /DaHjaj/ all have exactly the same
case. This case has no name, because Terran languages (the ones I know of,
anyway) do not work this way.
Klingon does NOT have the dative (indirect object) or ablative (place from
which, manner, etc.) cases. It has the genetive, which is manifest in the
first noun of a noun-noun construction.
As a side note, something which I've just realized, let me point out that I
could make the following sentence:
romuluS puqvaD tlhIngan betleH nob loD.
The man gives the Romulan child a Klingon bat'leth.
Here he have /loD/ with the nominative case, as before. /betleH/ is
accusative. /tlhIngan/ is genitive. This is why the term "oblique" isn't
perfect for every non-subject, non-object noun; the word /tlhIngan/ is
"oblique" but not one of these words. It's part of the object. However, in
/romuluS puqvaD/, /puqvaD/ is a non-object, non-subject case noun, and
/romuluS/ is a genitive noun. By the strict definition of "oblique," they'd
both be oblique.
So it looks like I've probably shot down my own word! Like I said, I'm not
hurting about it. It's just a name. Any word which indicates a
non-subject, non-object case would do.
Let me use my idea of the "OTHER" case. I believe properly you are supposed
to capitalize case names.
DaHjaj vaS'a'Daq romuluS puqvaD tlhIngan betleH nob loD.
Today at the Great Hall, the man gives the Klingon bat'leth to the Romulan
child.
/loD/ = NOMINATIVE.
/betleH/ = ACCUSATIVE. Since there is no inflection, I don't know if these
are worth two cases or not.
/tlhIngan/ = GENITIVE
/puqvaD/ = OTHER
/romuluS/ = GENITIVE
/vaS'a'Daq/ = OTHER
/DaHjaj/ = OTHER.
SuStel
Stardate 506.8