tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Fri Feb 11 04:54:02 2000

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Re: cheng Sa' may'bom bom mu' cha'DIch

jImIS:
>Parentheses in Okrand's translations tend to confuse me.
>AFAIK, he never explicitly explained them. qar'a'?
>So do the parentheses mean that the contents of the parentheses is optional,
>or that they must be used as the subject, or that there must not be any 
subject?
>For example:
>
>bIv   break (rules)
>
>Does this mean that "rules" or an equivalent noun must be the object (e.g.,
>{chut vIbIv})? Or does it mean that there should never be any object (e.g.,
>{jIbIv})? Or does it mean that you can decide whether to have an object?

jang veS joH:
>the parenthisis generally give a guide line where one word is unclear in a 
>lone standing.  In you example, bIv is specific to a type of thing to break. 
>
>In other words, the rules aren't really broknen in to seperate pieces, 
rather 
>they were not followed.  By the parenthisis being around the subject word, 
it 
>would seem to insist, at least to me, that this word is inappropriate to use 
>for a synonym for words like shatter or discribing the verb for having 
>something come apart.  A subject and object would be required as each 
>sentence varies.

jIghel:
>So you're saying that (using my example again) {jIbIv} would be 
ungrammatical 
>because {bIv} *must* be transitive?

jang veSjoH:
>I'm sorry, i'm not sure I know exactly what transitive is and i threw out my 
>dictionary when i moved.  As for the example being ungrammitical, it really 
>depends on the sentence it's used in.   Ex.  if you were to say, "I need to 
>break bottles"  it would be ungrammitical to use jIbIvnIS.  if you were to 
>say "I need to break the law"  then it would be appropriate to use jIbIvnIS. 
>
>the word <bIv> is simply peticular to breaking rules and the sort.

I understand that {bIv} applies only to breaking rules and the like. My 
question is whether {bIv} is

1) only intransitive (cannot take a direct object, just like {Qom})
2) only transitive (must take a direct object)
3) either transitive or intransitive (may or may not take a direct object, 
just like {baH})

My impression was that option three was correct. You seem to be agreeing. qar'
a'?


- DujHoD

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