tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Mon Nov 01 13:50:58 1999

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RE: Hoch



jIjatlh:
>qo' Hoch 'oH Qujmaj yoS'e'
><Hoch> placed after a noun means "All of X; the entirety of X".

jatlh Lily:

> Where is this stated? Pagh, are you trying to use Hoch as 
> N2 in a N1_N2 construction? If so, I thought that Mark 
> Shoulson wrote that Hoch is to be no longer treated in 
> N_N constructions but instead as a quantifier where "Hoch 
> comes before, and not after" (HolQeD, Vol5,2:11).

Our understanding of the language continues to grow. <Hoch> can and usually
does act like a quantifier placed before the noun. It can *also* be used as
noun 2 in a noun noun construction. In addition to just making sense,
ghunchu'wI' pointed out the example of <nIn Hoch natlhlu'pu'> on KGT page
155. Looking at this example again myself, I would not be surprised if
Okrand chose it deliberately, not only to explain the non slang meaning of
<natlh>, but also to use <Hoch> after a noun.

> In fact, your statement (if it was yours) contradicts when 
> he wrote that Hoch coming "after" a plural noun meant "All 
> the X's , taken collectively" (which seems equivalent to 
> your "entirety"). So <Hoch tlhInganpu'> is "all Klingons" 
> and it can also be placed before a not explicity plural 
> noun to mean "every X, individually".

If I'd put <Hoch> before the noun, I would have said <Hoch qo'> - "each
world" or <Hoch qo'mey> - "all the worlds". That is not the intended
meaning. The intended meaning is that the whole planet - every square inch
of it - is the playing field. <qo' Hoch>.

> Pagh, if you wanted to suggest "All of X", wouldn't it be 
> better to stick to Krankor's suggestion of naQ instead?

It's hard to explain in English, but there's a difference. To illustrate,
contrast <yuQ naQ vIlegh> and <yuQ Hoch vIlegh>. The first says that I see a
planet that is whole. It's a perfect sphere; it doesn't have a big bite
taken out of it by a giant space slug. The second says that I see all of the
planet.  It's not obscured by the moon; the whole thing is in plain view
before me. English uses the world "whole" to express both these meanings,
and often the wind up intertwining with each other. There is no reason to
expect Klingon to behave this way.

jathl Krankor (HolQeD, Vol5,2:3):
> Hoch chabmey Soppu'! "He ate all of the pies!" but not "He 
> ate all of the pie!" While it is possible that Hoch could 
> also be used in this way, it is probably still safer at 
> present to use <naQ> - "be full, whole, entire." Thus,
> chab naQ Soppu'!

Wow. Krankor choosing the safe route. qubchu' wanI'vetlh. I am pretty sure
this column was written before KGT came out, with the example.


pagh
Beginners' Grammarian

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