tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Sun Mar 21 19:39:06 1999
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RE: Aspect
Here we go again. You know, in retrospect, I'm not sure why I bothered to
write any of this out, because I doubt peHruS will read it.
> TKD 4.7 DOES use the words "aspect," "perfective" and
> "continuous." Admit it. The words are there in black and white!
No one was denying this. This is fiction which you dreamed up. In fact, if
you had bothered to read ghunchu'wI''s post, you'd see it says,
> mu'meyvam lo'bej TKD, 'ej TKD lo''e' vIyajchu'.
"TKD definitely uses these terms, and TKD's usage I understand perfectly."
Or if you did read and understand his words, then you're stating something
uncontroversial as if you just discovered some hidden truth. Hey! TKD
contains a description of KLINGON grammar! All previous claims to the
contrary are absolutely false! (Doesn't matter that there were no previous
claims to the contrary.)
> TKD 4.7 says that "perfective" OFTEN translates into English as simple
past
> tense. What about the times it does not translate as simple past tense.
Aspect is not tense. Aspect is not tense. Aspect is not tense. Aspect is
not tense. If you're talking about something in present tense and using
{-ta'} or {-pu'}, it means the action is completed. At some point in the
past, it finished. It's not continuing on now. It does not mean past
tense, because Klingon does not have tense, and aspect is not tense. You've
latched onto the words "perfective is often translated as simple past
tense," and totally failed to grasp the grammatical tool.
If you're talking about something in the future and using {-ta'} or {-pu'},
it means that, relative to the future point in time, the action is
completed. Perhaps, relative to the present , it's ongoing, or it hasn't
started, or it's completed; you don't know. But relative to the future
point it time, it's completed.
And for completeness: If you're talking about something in the past and
using {-ta'} or {-pu'}, it means that, relative to the past point in time,
the action is completed.
You know, this reminds me of a story from my language acquisition course. A
mother was trying to correct her little boy's language error. The boy
earnestly wanted to get it right.
CHILD: Nobody don't like me.
MOTHER: No, say "nobody likes me."
CHILD: Nobody don't like me.
(eight repetitions of this dialog)
...
MOTHER: Now listen carefully; say "nobody likes me."
CHILD: Oh! Nobody don't likes me.
(McNeill 1966:69, reported in Brown 1987). No matter how much the mother
and the child both wanted the child to get it right, he just wasn't
linguistically ready to advance to that stage of linguistic development. It
doesn't matter for that child; he will grow into the correct usage (this was
L1 acquisition, after all).
Maybe you're just not ready to understand Klingon aspect.
> TKD
> does not explain this, that I can find. I have had to look at MO's canon
> relevations to attempt to understand when "perfective" means much more.
Okrand's use of {-pu'} and {-ta'} always mean the same thing: completed
(with the familiar added meaning with {-ta'}). Anything else, you're adding
in there all by yourself.
> Referring back to my college linguistics courses textbooks have helped me
> tremendously in understanding MO's understanding.
Apparently not.
> In conclusion, we do need to understand the correct meaning of Aspect to
> understand how Klingon uses it. Your claim that you can use it without
> understanding what it really means from professional sources, but from
TKD's
> scant usage and explanations alone, are not only risky, but in some ways
> outright wrong.
Remarkable. You assail one of the clearest, most skilled speakers on this
list because he lacks a professional source for his understanding.
Meanwhile, your nearly DECADE of linguistics courses serve only to confuse
you and make your Klingon incoherent.
> I have noted that you might think {-pu'} refers to
> completion. WRONG!!!
Hey, look here. peHruS is stating that something directly out of TKD is
wrong. Go figure. This is a marvelous example of his non-sensical
proclaimations about the language. peHruS, you are infamous for doing this.
You state something ridiculous, which directly contradicts TKD, (without
explaining yourself, BTW), and expect people to pay attention to you.
Will it do any good to quote TKD to you? As evidence that hope springs
eternal, here I go:
TKD 4.2.7, p. 40-41 (2nd Edition):
-pu' perfective
This suffix indicates that an action is completed. [...]
-ta' accomplished, done
This suffix is similar to -pu', but it used when an
activity was deliberately undertaken, the implication
being that someone set out to do someting and in fact
did it. English translations seldom reveal the difference.
Perhaps you are worried that {-pu'} is translated as "perfective" and {-ta'}
is translated as "accomplished, done." Perhaps you don't have TKD and
you're trying to get us to quote the whole thing to you in pieces, by
stating ridiculous falsehoods about each part of grammar. Each one seems
equally likely at this point. Look at the part that says, "This suffix is
similar to -pu'". Then, he describes how it means the action was
deliberately undertaken, and then accomplished. Now check out a few lines
below, where he points out that {luHoHta'} could not be used if the killing
were not intentional, as in the case of an accident. In such cases, -pu'
would be used. {-ta'} without the intention is {-pu'}. {-ta'} equals
{-pu'} + intention. {-pu'} means "perfective" (but forget any extra baggage
you might be carrying around about that word; it means what TKD says it
means). {-ta'} means "perfective" + intention.
> This is the very reason we need to learn well what
> "perfective" really means. TKD's explanations are not enough.
Meanwhile, you are the only one for whom TKD's descriptions of Klingon
grammar are not enough. Well, that's not really true; there are many points
of Klingon grammar that are not clear, and we are still struggling to
understand. But aspect isn't one of them. You alone seem to fail to
understand. That is, you alone persist in failing to understand. Most
people who are starting out with the language stumble at this point, because
it's so unlike English. But they try, they get corrected, they practice
some more, and then the get it and move on.
Get it and move on.
> peHruS
-- Holtej 'utlh
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