tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Thu Mar 11 08:40:51 1999

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RE: Placement of aspect suffixes


> Verbatim quote from "A Dictionary of Grammatical Terms in Linguistics" by R.L.
> Trask:  "perfective:  A superordinate aspectual category involving a lack of
> explicit reference to the internal temporal consistency of a situation, and
> contrasting principally with the imperfective.  In English, perfective aspect
> is chiefly expressed by the simple past-tense form."

Not that I don't think it's a good idea to further our understanding of terms with other
sources, but the only real source that matters here is TKD.  It sounds like your confusion
is coming from an attempt to map complex and inter-connected meanings of things like
"imperfective," "partitive," and "aspect" onto what is really a quite simple system in
Klingon.

> I have re-read MO's canon constructions in TKD, TKW and KGT.  In all cases no
> explicit time stamp was used.  I hope someone can point out to me any canon
> sentence with both a time stamp and a type 7 aspect verb suffix.  I want to
> see how MO translates such sentences, if any exist.

I am not the canon master, but here's what I've found after a cursory search (I will leave
the interpretation of these as an exercise to the reader):

PK Insert:
{reH 'uQvam vIqawtaH}
I will remember this dinner forever

S26 (Reproduced in HolQeD v5n3p15.)
{DuraS tuq tlhIngan yejquv patlh luDub 'e' reH lunIDtaH DuraS be'nI'pu' lurSa' be'etor je}
The sisters of the House of Duras, Lursa and B'Etor, are constantly seeking a higher
standing for the House of Duras within the Klingon High Council.

[Note, this uses the VS7 {-taH} on the verb with {'e'} as its object, which violates the
rule in TKD 6.2.5, and thus should probably be held suspect.]

S15 (Reproduced in HolQeD v4n3p5.)
{wa'DIch tlhIngan Dujmey luleghlu'pu'bogh rur qItI'nga' Duj tera' vatlh DIS poH cha'maH
wej HochHom lo'lu'taH.}
Similar in configuration to the first Klingon vessels encountered, the K'Tinga-Class
remained in use for most of the 23rd century.

S8 (Reprinted in HolQeD v4n3p4)
{nuja' tlhIngan wIch ja'wI'pu' yIntaHvIS qeylIS'e' lIjaHbe'bogh vay' batlh 'etlhvam
chenmoHlu'pu'.}
According to Klingon legend, this sword of honor descends from the time of Kahless the
Unforgettable.

SP1 (Reprinted in HolQeD v3n4p10)
{juHqo' Qo'noSvo' loghDaq lengtaHvIS tlhInganpu' 'ej qo'mey Sar charghtaHvIS chaH Dat
tlhIngan may'Duj luleghDI' neH qIb nganpu' buQpu' may'Duj 'ej ghIju' 'oH.  nIteb ghIju' je
Deghvam.}
During the aggressive expansion of the Klingon people from their homeworld of Kronos into
space, this symbol grew to become as feared throughout the galaxy as teh menacing profiles
of their battlecruisers.

TKD 6.2.2 p. 63
{SutlhtaHvIS chaH DIHIvpu'}
{DIHIvpu' SutlhtaHvIS chaH}
While they were negotiating we attacked them.

TKD 6.4 p. 70
{ghorgh Haw'pu' yaS}
When did the officer flee?

TKD 6.7 p. 179
{DaHjaj nom Soppu'}
Today they ate quickly.

TKD Useful Expressions
{ghorgh tujchoHpu' bIQ}
When will the water be hot?

TKD Useful Expressions
{not vIleghpu'}
I've never seen him/her before.

S33 (Reprinted in HolQeD v6n2p9.)
{boq lucherDI' tlhIngan wo' romuluS Hov wo' je So'wI' cham Soqpu' tlhIngan wo' chaq
tampu'.}
Cloaking technology was gained through an alliance with the Romulan Star Empire, possibly
in exchange for Warp Drive technology.

S33 (Reprinted in HolQeD v6n2p9.)
{HovpoH Hut vagh cha' wa' vI' jav Dujvam 'aghlu'pu' 'ach Qaw'lu'pu'.}
[Hmm, I don't have the translation for this.  I make it out as, "This ship was revealed on
Stardate 9521.6, but it was destroyed."]

S19 (Reproduced in HolQeD v5n3p14)
{janmey ngo' lulo'lu'DI' pIj jabbI'ID nISpu' woj}
Older models were susceptible to radiation.

S15 (Reproduced in HolQeD v4n3p5.)
{tera' vatlh DISpoH cha'maH loS bong QongmeH qItI'nga Duj tI'ang ghompu' DIvI' 'ejDo'
'enterpray'.}
A sleeper ship of this class, the T'Ong, was encountered in the 24th century th the U.S.S.
Enterprise.

Hmm, you found none, I found 14.  5 of these are straight out of TKD, which you stated as
one of your sources, which suggests you need to be more thorough in your analysis before
making claims about the language.  (Don't feel bad, Krankor dismantled a whole article I
had published in HolQeD due to one canon example I had missed.)

It is interesting to note that, as charghwI' has discussed, in the text of TKD Okrand had
been using what became the completed aspect as past tense.  The example sentences in the
text are consistently used this way.  But look at the one from the useful expressions
section, which was written later:

TKD Useful Expressions
{ghorgh tujchoHpu' bIQ}
When will the water be hot?

Clear evolution here of Okrand's use of aspect.

> Although I could easily agree that doubling the past-time reference by having
> both a time stamp and the perfective type 7 if shown to me by canon, I'm not
> now sure that is true.  I would have trouble conceptualizing that a time
> reference to the future must point backwards in time.

{wa'leS paq vIlaDta'.}  The time stamp is a reference to the future.  The {-ta'} says
that, at that time (which is "tomorrow"), my reading of the book is complete (with the
added insight that I set out to do it, and did it).  Don't think of {-ta'} as pointing
back in time, that would be tense.  Think of it as meaning, at that time, the action of
the verb is over, finished, completed.  It's not still going on at that time.  That's all
it means.

> Right now it is easier
> for me to conceptualize that the perfective refers to the time period, not a
> part of it.  That, after all, falls under the definition of "imperfective."

When you use words like "imperfective," I am not at all sure what you mean (but please do
not explain it to me).  Whatever you mean, it is not relevant to this discussion.  In some
cases, clear use of terminology can serve to clarify, to help illucidate a discussion.  In
this case, though, it seems only to be causing confusion, because it apparently means
something to you that it does not mean to us.  We can describe some aspect, and then you
say, "aha, that looks like the imperfective," and we say "yes it does."  Then you take
that to mean all other sorts of things based upon the meaning that "imperfective" has to
you, that was never implied by our discussions.

> peHruS

-- Holtej 'utlh

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