tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Mon Apr 26 13:54:02 1999
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RE: KLBC: Clause ordering...is this right?
jatlh pagh:
> I don't think <Hung tlhab ghap> works. This says that they mis-deserve
> (makes perfect sense in Klingon; not so much in English) either security
> or
> freedom, but not both. I think what you mean is that they mis-deserve both
> security *and* freedom.
jIjatlh quljIb:
> {Hung tlhab joq qotlhHa'taH} is the wanted phrase. "Freedon and/or
> security they continuously mis-deserve."
ja' pagh je:
> Actually, I don't think it is. <Hung tlhab joq qotlhHa'taH> means that they
> misdeserve *at least one of* "freedom" and/or "security". The point of the
> original quote is that they deserve neither, so they must misdeserve *both*.
As a math student I must respectfully disagree. The rules of logic (he
says putting on a set of pointed ears) argue in favor of {joq}. Here, I
shall illustrate:
I like Green Eggs AND Ham.
I like Green Eggs OR Ham.
With the the first one, I'm saying I like both, together. In the second,
I'm saying I'll have one, but not with the other.
Now to the negatives:
I do not like Green Eggs AND Ham.
I do not like Green Eggs OR Ham.
Again with the first sentence, I'm telling Sam that I don't like the
two together. This says nothing about separate dishes. In the second, I'm
telling Sam, I don't like one of them, but I'm not commenting on the
other. I CAN hate both, whether I DO or not is immiterial, As long as I
hate at lest ONE the statement holds true.
Slightly different is the following:
I like Green Eggs AND I like (Green) Ham.
I like Green Eggs OR I like (Green) Ham.
The meanings of these should be obvious.
Again, the negatives:
I do not like Green Eggs AND I do not like (Green) Ham.
I do not like Green Eggs OR I do not like (Green) Ham.
The first statement is what the narrator means when he says "I do not like
Green Eggs and Ham." (Yes, yes, it's actually one dish; bear with me will
you?) The second statement show that I dislike AT LEAST one, I CAN dislike
others, but I need not.
Now, back to the original Klingon.
This honourless p'tahk does not deserve both freedom AND security AND he
does not deserve freedom OR security.
Represented mathmatically:
p = freedom
q = security
~ = negation
~(p AND q) AND ~(p OR q) = ~p AND ~q
i.e. he deserves not-freedom and not-security. He deserves neither.
He does not deserve freedom {Hung} and/or security {tlhab}.
quljIb
(Who now give his ears a much needed rest!)