tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Sat Nov 08 19:12:00 1997
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Re: plans
Alan Anderson wrote:
> >A indirect question consists of an interrogative sentence, transformed
> >in a phrase such that it is asked about in another sentence. I add this:
> ><The whole prase is referred in the sentence *in which it contains*.>
>
> Can you give an example of such an "indirect question"? Whatever it is,
> it sounds to me like the "He knows who hit the child" example isn't one.
"He knows who hit the child" _is_ an example of an indirect question.
Question: What does he know?
Answer: (He knows) who hit the child.
He might know because he saw the child being hit, however it is not
known whether he knows the person who hit the child or not (he can be
someone whom he never saw before). Perhaps he might know because he was
the one who did the hitting.
Or the child told him *who did it*.
By the way, that was another example of an "indirect question".
the child -- subject
told -- verb
him -- indirect object
who hit the child -- direct object.
> This example is plainly a statement, not a question of any sort.
>
> >But,
> >a relative phrase is a phrase with a relative pronoun (or without one in
> >English) that is referring to an antecedent (or a precedent in some
> >languages). <One element in the relative phrase is referring to another
> >element in phrase which it contains.>
>
> In English, a relative phrase has a relative pronoun. In Klingon, a
> relative clause has the suffix {-bogh} on the verb. Klingon uses the
> verb suffix; it does not use relative pronouns.
>
> >In all the languages I have studied (and I haven't studied just a few)
> >the interrogative words are used in indirect questions.
>
> In all the non-Klingon languages *I* have studied (admittedly few), the
> interrogative pronouns are mirrored by similar or identical relative
> pronouns. The meanings behind the two uses are, however, quite distinct.
>
> >But there is a difference in meaning between an indirect question and a
> >relative clause.
>
> I'm curious about this. Please provide an example of each and show what
> you mean.
See my previous posts
> [much story snipped]
> >Huch nge'bogh ghot Sov chom, 'ach Huch nge' 'Iv 'e' Sovbe' chom.
> >Quark knows the one who took the money, but he doesn't know who took the
> >money.
>
> Huh? Ignoring the Klingon grammar for a moment, what distinction are
> you trying to make between the two clauses in English? They sound like
> they are contradicting one another. Either Quark knows the thief or he
> does not, right? How can it be both?
Right, Quark knows the thief, because the thief is either Rom or Nog,
and he knows both of them.
However he just does not know who the thief is.
>
> Same question: does Paris know the thief or doesn't he?
>
> Oh, wait, perhaps I see what you're trying to do. Are you attempting to
> distinguish between two different meanings of the word "know"? te
Exactly. The first statement answers the question:
Whom does Paris not know?
The second and third sentences answers what Paris knows.
A few languages do use different verbs to distinguish difference.
Indirect question
the numbers are there to make the word-order in English:
2not 1is (is read: "is not")
Spanish example
El humano sabe quien tom� el dinero.
The human knows who took the money
Relative clause
El humano no conoce al que tom� el dinero.
The human 2not 1is-familiar with-the(one) that took the money.
German example.
Indirect question
Der Erdmensch wei�, wer das Geld nimmt.
The earth-man knows, who 2the 3money 1takes.
Relative clause.
Der Erdmensch kennt nicht den, der das Geld nimmt,
The Earth-man is-2familiar 1not with-the-one, which 2the 3money 1takes.
Instead
> of misusing interrogatives as if they were relative pronouns in an attempt
> to mirror the English phrasing, why not choose more precise words?
>
> {nIHwI' qIHta'be' Human 'ach nIHwI' ngu'laH Human.}
> Paris hasn't met the thief, but Paris can identify the thief.
But maybe Paris has met the thief, perhaps not. He might have ordered
some food from Nog, and a drink from Rom.
It
> -- ghunchu'wI'