tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Sun Apr 13 11:32:42 1997

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RE: SopDaq



Let me try again.

As Alan Anderson pointed out, there are "two-syllable" words that 
when broken down into their "single-syllable" components don't 
make sense.

     >Consider {qa'meH} -- it's emphatically *not* 
     >"spirit-bridge", nor does {nIteb} necessarily have
     > anything to do with "they fill you."

Dr. Okrand spoke about some "unusual compound words" in TKD 
3.2.3 (YES he uses them as COMPOUND WORDS).

       For example, <<'ejDO'>> means 'starship'.  The syllable 
       <<'ej>> also occurs in <'ejyo'> 'Starfleet'.  There are, however,
       no known Klingon words <<'ej>>, <<Do'>>, or <<yo'>> that
       have anything to do with 'Starfleet', 'starships', the 'Federation', 
       or 'space vehicles' of any kind.  It is quite likely that <<Do'>>
       is an Old Klingon word for 'space vessel' (the modern Klingon
       word is <<Duj>>) that is used nowhere except in the noun 
       <<'ejDo'>>.  Of course, without further study, that remains 
       pure conjecture.

The key phrase here seems to indicate the these "confusing words" 
are from "Old Klingon" combinations.  We should be able to take 
known words that make sense as "good" examples and if they don't 
we can wait around for Dr. Okrand to give us the single "word" 
and it's meaning to bring it all together.

Go with the positive not the negative and learn from words like 
lupDuj (shuttlecraft - transport ship), vutpa' (galley - cooking 
room), QongDaq (bed - sleeping place), HIvDuj (attach fighter), 
etc.  These words are a small sampling of the many "two-syllable" 
words that make sense to their "single syllable" components, but 
because there isn't a "noun" entry for in TKD many of the "learned 
Klingonists" within the KLI make "petty" arguments (and the 
mailing list is full of them).  They choose to ignore them and say 
that if they don't make sense they should be left alone, wait for 
Okrand to rule on it.  Such an attitude doesn't grow the language 
but stifle it.

Throughout TKD, Dr. Okrand told us that TKD was only a 
beginning.  There seems to be more questions than answers.  I 
believed that because TKD was written as an ENGLISH to 
KLINGON book.  The use of ENGLISH equivalents should allow 
us to use it with "common" English definitions (which I confess 
has not always been the case).

I was TRYING earlier to say that, when "compound" words seem 
to make sense we should use them.  <<QongDaq>> would be a 
normal compound noun equation and MAKES sense to take 
<<Qong>> as a noun in a noun-noun construction for "bed".  Also 
using <<pa'>> (room) we see <<vutpa'>>.  <<vut>> is a verb in 
TKD, but it would make sense to put <<vut>> as a noun in the 
noun-noun construction <<vutpa'>>.  Verbs can be used as nouns 
(not necessarily all, but I believe Dr. Okrand will eventually need 
to go in that direction) and Dr. Okrand continues to give us nouns 
that were once verbs (and you like it or not <<wov>> was clearly 
used in the Hallmark commercial as a noun).  *I'm* not making 
<<Qong>> or <<vut>> a noun on my own but taking Dr. Okrand's 
words and TKD to make a valid logical inference.

Personally, I'd like to see a special rule allowing <<-Daq>> to be 
added to "verbs" like <-wI'>>. It would definitely allow a larger 
use of existing words without having to add new ones.  Verb suffix 
<<-Daq>> would mean "a localized place or location" giving us:  
<<QongDaq>> for sleeping place or bed, <<SuvDaq>> for 
fighting place or rink or mat, <<vutDaq>> for cooking place or 
stove or hearth, <<tamDaq>> for quite place or sound proof room, 
<<qetDaq>> for running place or track,  <<SopDaq>> for eating 
place or dining room table or kitchen table,  <<yItDaq>> for 
walking place or sidewalk or walking track or path, <<DIl>> for 
pay for place or sales counter or cash register location, etc.

These would even not negate the interpretation of the noun 
<<Daq>> as a "more localized" meaning of "place" in the noun-
noun construction, <<QongDaq>> or <<vutDaq>>.   Then by 
using that noun-noun construction technique we'd get <<SojDaq>> 
for table, <<ghItlhDaq>> for desk or library table,  <<paqDaq>> 
for "book shelf", <<DujDaq>> for parking place or berth or hanger 
or garage (the bigger the object the bigger the larger the localized 
place and it' wouldn't detract from <<Dujpa'>> as being hangar or 
garage as well).

*** NOTE  *****  My  ideas and opinions  ***** NOTE ***
*** NOTE  *****  My  ideas and opinions  ***** NOTE ***

I don't believe that anyone expected Klingon to take off the way it 
did.  As I've said many times before, TKD seems to have been 
written to give general guidelines and allow the "purchaser" the 
ability to take the ENGLISH language and make "educated 
guesses" and bring their understanding of ENGLISH language 
principles to bear and "HAVE FUN" with the language.

The Klingon Language is not some " Holy Grail" to be used by a 
few "stodgy minded purists" who want to make it into something 
that is incomprehensible to the general public.  It would be to 
Paramount's interest to make it easier to use and "closer" to it's 
Terran derivatives for it's MONETARY APPEAL.  Generally 
people have lives and don't have time to sit and pour hours and 
days and weeks into learning a language that it too difficult.  They 
are the majority and they are the ones that put out the money.  So 
saying, Klingon will become a "popular language" only if it's easier 
to use.  Making something *alien* doesn't mean that it needs to be 
difficult.

And "when push comes to shove" PARAMOUNT will win no 
matter what I or anyone else thinks will happen or what I or 
anyone else wants to happen.

*** END NOTE  *****   *****  END NOTE ***
*** END NOTE  *****   *****  END NOTE ***

Dr. Okrand doesn't have all the answers (but heaven know he can 
"make them up").  I believe he wants us to take Klingon and run 
with it a bit.  He seems to be sitting back waiting for this and if we 
just sit around "waiting for Dr. Okrand" to say "yeah or nay" we 
are doing him a disservice and stifling the REAL growth of the 
language.  On the MSN bulletin board he wanted IDEAS.  He 
made the appeal on a GENERAL BULLETIN BOARD for them.  I 
would hope it helps him in seeing what will make Klingon a 
"popular" language and I hope that is what he wants.



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