tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Mon Dec 02 20:55:38 1996
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Re: RE: Embedded wh-questions
- From: "William H. Martin" <[email protected]>
- Subject: Re: RE: Embedded wh-questions
- Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 23:54:52 -0500 ()
- Priority: NORMAL
On Mon, 2 Dec 1996 17:32:04 -0800 d'Armond Speers
<[email protected]> wrote:
> On Monday, December 02, 1996 7:48 PM, Marc
> Ruehlaender[SMTP:[email protected]] wrote:
>
> > > Since wh-elements don't raise in Klingon, they remain 'in situ', we
> don't
> > > have such extraction effects. For instance,
> > >
> > > *Mary* parHa' 'Iv 'e' vISIv.
> > > 'Iv parHa' *John* 'e' vISIv.
I believe that this problem is largely created by English using
the same word "who" as a question word and as a relative clause
helper word. You are not really asking a question in the English
sentence you are failing to translate into Klingon. You are
thinking something more clearly expressed as a relative clause:
*Mary* parHa'bogh nuv'e' vIngu'laH vIneH.
nuv'e' parHa' *John* vIngu'laH vIneH.
> > > To my ear, though these are syntactically correct, they sound like
> > > gibberish.
To me, they sound like gibberish and I wonder about their
syntax. We simply have no canon for using question words in the
object sentence of a sentence as object construction, and I see
why. It doesn't work for me. Okrand may prove me wrong on this
with a single example, but so far, I'm relieved that he hasn't.
It just looks very weak.
> > > Again, my mind has a hard time raising the scope of the
> > > question to the matrix level.
That's one way to put it.
> > These just mean "I wonder who likes Mary" and "I wonder whom John
> > likes" resp. to me. You probably are looking for ways to do the
> > other two?
It doesn't work for me. For one thing, "wonder" sounds very
intransitive to me. {*Mary* parHa'bogh nuv'e' vIngu'laHbe'mo'
jISIv.} I don't wonder something. I just wonder. I may wonder
because of something, but wondering is not an action I apply to
an object. It is like being confused. Of course, I think the
same thing about the verb {Qub}. I think it is intransitive.
Unfortunately, I can't find any canon for it at all. It just
feels that way to me.
> Yes, of course. That even lends credence to the question. When I see the
> Klingon sentences above, I read them as "I wonder who likes Mary" and "I
> wonder who John likes." I'm wondering about "who do you wonder whether
> John likes" and "who do you wonder whether likes Mary" (though that latter
> one is ungrammatical in English for unrelated reasons).
You lost me on the curve.
> > How about
> >
> > 'Iv 'oH *Mary* parHa'bogh nuv'e' 'e' vISIv
> > 'Iv 'oH nuv'e' parHa'bogh *John* 'e' vISIv
Eeeeeeeew! Not only threw in a "to be" where it wasn't needed,
but you picked the wrong pronoun!
> Well, perhaps /'Iv ghaH .../. But is this really that different from /'Iv
> parHa' *John* 'e' vISIv/?
Yes. It is much uglier. And again, it confuses a question word
with a relative clause. You want to know the identity of the
person described by the relative clause involving liking.
> I think the question (problem) is clearer with the /'Iv qIp yaS 'e' DaQub/
> examples.
I see this the same way. nuv'e' qIpbogh yaS yIngu'.
bISovbe'chugh yIloy.
> > HomDoq
>
> --Holtej
> Stardate 96922.81
charghwI'