tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Thu Aug 08 15:55:27 1996
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Re: Klingon-American :(
- From: [email protected]
- Subject: Re: Klingon-American :(
- Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 18:57:15 -0400
In a message dated 96-08-08 11:52:14 EDT, you write:
> I noticed a while ago that American usage showed in the presence of
> these two words from TKD:
>
> veng city
> vengHom village
>
> Now, normally one has three graduations of settlement size..village,
> town, city. So far as i can tell, Americans don't have towns...
We don't? Hmmm . . . then I wonder where I've been living for the past ten
years?
> they seem
> to call everything a 'city', even what we British would call a 'town'
> (like some of the smaller 'cities' in the States). Given the existence
> of {vengHom} for 'village', it is logical that a large 'city' would be
> {*veng'a'}. Given this presumption, a TKD translated into *British*
> English would have the entries:
>
> veng town
> vengHom village
> veng'a' city
>
> If you wanted to refer to a *large* city (London, as opposed to say
> Glasgow), you would then say {veng'a' tIn}. This leaves {veng} for the
> smaller American 'cities' (like say Athens or Little Rock) and keeps
> {veng'a'} for the bigger ones (Atlanta?), and {veng'a' tIn} would be the
> real large ones like San Francisco, LA, Denver, New York....
I don't your observation accurately describes Americans. At least the ones I
know. When *I* think of the word "city," I think of New York (but then, I
live an hour away from it by car). Whenever I go on car trips, I pass
through "towns," not "cities."
I don't think Okrand was concerned with such gradations. He probably came up
with {veng}, and then asked himself, "how do you say 'village'? Hmmm . . .
{vengHom}."
> My second linguistic quibble is with the translation of {qa'vIn}.
> Quoting HolQeD v4 n2 p7, it says "Okrand acknowledges that it is unclear
> whether this obvious cognate refers to the beverage itself, or to the
> prominence of 'caffeine' in the brew, or perhaps both at once."
>
> Given this stated uncertainty, it is clear that just using {qa'vIn} as a
> translation for 'coffee' is both partially incorrect (as a case could be
> made that {qa'vIn} refers to any caffeinated drink), it also reflects
> the apparent American attitude that coffee=caffeine.
Yes, "coffee is caffeine" is definitely something American love to think
(actually, I hate the stuff), but I don't think "caffeine is coffee" is an
Americanism. Many people I know (including myself) often drink soda (ie.
Coke, Pepsi, etc.) to get some caffeine.
I think the uncertainty in the word {qa'vIn} is due to two factors: first, it
sounds like both "coffee" and "caffeine," and second, that we do tend to
think "coffee is caffeine" (but not necessarily the other way around).
> what I would propose, given the evidence of the article giving the word,
> is that {qa'vIn} most accurately means 'caffeinated drink', with the
> possible meaning of coffee
I don't think this conclusion can be drawn just yet (it was on the wish list
given to Okrand, though).
> Has anyone else spotted any other Klingon words where the translation to
> English shows an American linguistic bias?
As I recall, some other non-American Klingon speakers had to have the joke in
the word {qop} "arrest" explained to them. I'm sure there are other
examples.
> (I'm not trying to particularly get at American cultural presumptions,
> just to draw attention to the fact that other people on this planet
> would probably translate Klingon differently [read flexibly :) ])
I'd say that since TKD's word glosses were written by an American and
(originally) for Americans, that an American interpretation of the *English*
words will give the correct meaning in Klingon. Think of it as calibration.
The Klingon words have meanings in and of themselves without reference to
American, British, Australian, or what-have-you English. However, you've got
to choose one to understand it, unless you're a native Klingon speaker (how
many of THOSE have you met recently?). Marc Okrand used a form of American
English to write the dictionary, so this form has the correct interpretation
(by definition, since this is an artifical language).
SuStel
Stardate 96604.8