tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Tue Nov 25 12:35:18 2014
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Re: [Tlhingan-hol] "A Klingon Christmas Carol" trailer
> I also wonder about the translation of {SutIv’egh’a’?} as “You will enjoy yourselves!?”
> If I had to say that in English, I’m not sure how I’d inflect it. Especially given cultural
> overtones, I’d expect a Klingon to actually be expressing puzzlement. “Is it that you
> enjoy yourselves?” In other words, “How could it be that as a species you enjoy
> yourselves? One can enjoy honor! One can enjoy a mission! One can enjoy victory!
> How can one enjoy one’s ’self’?"
It is indeed a pretty weird and very English expression. However, this is not the first time {tIv'egh} has been used to mean "enjoy oneself"; Korrd said {petIv'egh!} to Klaa and Vixis in Star Trek V.
...but he was a diplomat and had spent years on a pretty depressing planet with a bunch of humans, so maybe he'd picked up the expression from them.
Also, I share your thoughts on {ja'} vs. {jatlh}, but this wouldn't be the first time {ja'} is used in this way.
I usually take the grammar of paq'batlh with quite a few grains of salt, but it is does contain quite a lot of examples where {ja'} is used where one might expect {ja'}.
=== paq'batlh, paq'yav, Canto 10, Stanza 3 ===
wIj jup
SengmeywIj vIja'laHbe'
jIHvaD ratlh pagh
Dear old friend,
I cannot speak of my tragedies,
There is nothing left for me.
=== paq'batlh, paq'raD, Canto 6, Stanzas 1-4 ===
loDnI’Daj vavDaj je ja’ qeylIS
nIteb peghoS
HatlhDaq peleng
toDuj lutraj quv lutraj je
QoymeH tlhIngan tuqmey
tIja’
DaH peHarghchoH
DaH molor yISuvchoH
tIja’
molor luSuvmeH
nuHmeychaj Suq
’e’ tlhob qeylIS
===paq'batlh, paq'raD, Canto 7, Stanza 8 ===
Qo’noSDaq boqwI’mey
nejmeH je leng qeylIS
‘ej chaHvaD lut ja’
=== paq'batlh, paq'raD, Canto 9, Stanza 5 ===
lut ja’taHvIS Hem rewbe’
‘ej Dat SuchDI’ qotar
Dach Hoch SuvwI’pu’ Hem
=== paq'batlh, paq'raD, Canto 10, Stanza 4 & 8 ===
le’yo’ lutmey juja’pu’mo’ qatlho’
cha’ puqloDpu’wI’ puqbe’wI’ je
qa’ang vIneH
[...]
lugh luqara’ joH qanra’
le’yo’ lutmey Saja’pu’
DaH naDev jIHtaHbogh meq Saja’
=== paq'batlh, paq'raD, Canto 11, Stanza 8 ===
raSDaq toS qeylIS
rewbe’pu’ qaD
‘ej mu’meyvam ja’
=== paq'batlh, paq'raD, Canto 14, Stanza 7 ===
may’ lunungbogh repmey’e’
qeylISvaD mu’meyvam
ja’ta’ molor qotar je
=== paq'batlh, paq'raD, Canto 17, Stanza 1 ===
ghu’vam qellI’ qotar
ghIq pagh ja’taHvIS
qeylIS ‘uchHa’ ‘ej ghaHvo’ yIt
________________________________________
From: [email protected] [[email protected]]
Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2014 21:10
To: tlhIngan-Hol
Subject: Re: [Tlhingan-hol] "A Klingon Christmas Carol" trailer
In Okrand’s defense, perhaps the Klingon actually said {no’wI’} and the translator mistakenly changed “my ancestor(s)” into “our ancestor(s)”. Similarly {no’chaj} is probably correct, since we are talking about multiple ancestors, even if we omit the plural suffix.
But I do think that the Klingon misspoke when he chose the verb {ja’} instead of {jatlh} when he said {qatlh tlhIngan lut luja’ tera’ngan DawI’pu’lI’?}
Okrand has clearly explained to us that the direct object of {jatlh} is a speech or a story or a language, but the direct object of {ja’} is another person. This is consistent with canon and dictionary examples of {ja’chuq}, but no canon or dictionary examples of *{jatlhchuq}. You {jatlh} things that can’t talk back. You {ja’} those who can.
I hope that this is actually declared an error and not used as canon. Making it canon would make it official that the divide between {ja’} and {jatlh} is muddy and useless and we might as well just have one word since they both basically mean the same thing and are interchangeable, especially when we were earlier told that the two were NOT interchangeable.
Maybe it was just a transcription error. Maybe the Klingon actually SAID {jatlh} and the person listening and typing just misunderstood and typed {ja’}.
That’s MY story, and I’m STICKING to it.
I also wonder about the translation of {SutIv’egh’a’?} as “You will enjoy yourselves!?” If I had to say that in English, I’m not sure how I’d inflect it. Especially given cultural overtones, I’d expect a Klingon to actually be expressing puzzlement. “Is it that you enjoy yourselves?” In other words, “How could it be that as a species you enjoy yourselves? One can enjoy honor! One can enjoy a mission! One can enjoy victory! How can one enjoy one’s ’self’?"
Imagine saying this with the same emotion with which Worf, sitting in a hot mud bath, turned to Deanna Troy and sneered, “You mean I’m just supposed to SIT here?"
lojmIt tI’wI’ nuv ‘utlh
Retired Door Repair Guy
> On Nov 25, 2014, at 4:52 AM, De'vID <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> On 23 November 2014 at 20:49, De'vID <[email protected]> wrote:
>> jatlh Marc Okrand... DIvI' Hol neH jatlh, 'ach tlhIngan Hol lo' yu'wI':
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Nc5t9AZYsM
>>
>> mu' chu' 'oH'a'?
>> {DawI'} - "actor, actress"
>
> I got a confirmation that Marc Okrand wrote the Klingon for this, so
> {DawI'} is now canon for "actor, actress". :-)
>
> {tera'ngan wIyu'}
> Interrogation of an Earthling
>
> {'Iv SoH?}
> Who are you?
>
> {tlhIngan Hol 'oghta' pagh!
> tlhIngan Hol jatlh no'wI' 'ej
> tlhIngan Hol jatlh no'chaj!}
> No one invented the Klingon language!
> Our ancestors spoke Klingon and their ancestors spoke Klingon!
>
> [Note: {no'wI'} and not {no'ma'}, which is probably an error, and
> {no'chaj} not {no'Daj}!]
>
> {qatlh tlhIngan lut luja' tera'ngan DawI'pu'lI'?}
> Why are your earthling actors telling a Klingon story?
>
> {tlhInganpu' QaHbe' wanI'vam!}
> This event does not help Klingons!
>
> {toH - tlhIngan wo' botIch 'e' boHech. ghorgh? nuqDaq?}
> So - you intend to insult the Klingon Empire. When? Where?
>
> {Do'.}
> That's fortunate.
>
> {SutIv'egh'a'?!}
> You will enjoy yourselves?!
>
> --
> De'vID
>
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