tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Tue Nov 04 08:46:13 2014
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Re: [Tlhingan-hol] "Knitting" in Klingon
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Okrand has been asked about {SIv} more than once:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Courier">"More recently, however, [Okrand] has made a big joke about how uncertain he is about how {<b>SIv}</b> works. He kept saying, 'I wonder about {<b>SIv}</b>,' and then he'd grin." [charghwI']<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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WM: "...the verb {<b>SIv}</b>, which was really interesting." <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Courier">MO: "That one, yes. I've wondered about that a lot. I spent a good chunk of one summer, one or two summers ago, - I'm not trying to make a pun here, but - wondering about how that works." [charghwI's IMO,
HQ 7.4]<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> lojmIt tI'wI' nuv 'utlh [mailto:[email protected]]
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<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, November 01, 2014 5:59 PM<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal">This would almost support De’vID’s phrasing… The canon example’s English translation fits it, but without {-chugh} in the Klingon version.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">mu’qID lughov latlhpu’ ‘e’ vISIv.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I wonder whether or not others recognize the word-joke.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">So, basically, when using {‘e’} with {SIv}, the translation is more like “wonder if, wonder about, wonder whether or not."<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">lojmIt tI’wI’ nuv ‘utlh<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Door Repair Guy, Retired Honorably<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Nov 1, 2014, at 5:51 PM, Felix Malmenbeck <<a href="mailto:[email protected]";>[email protected]</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">To the best of my knowledge, the only known example of SIv with an object:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">{tlhIngan Hol Dajatlh 'e' vISIv.}<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="http://klingonska.org/canon/search/?file=1998-06-holqed-07-2.txt&get=source";>http://klingonska.org/canon/search/?file=1998-06-holqed-07-2.txt&get=source</a><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Marc goes into some detail on this, so he seems to have thought it through:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">==========<o:p></o:p></p>
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<pre style="word-wrap: break-word"><span style="font-family:"UICTFontTextStyleBody","serif"">The fourth example is weird from an English translation point of view, but it falls right in line in Klingon. If the English translation matched the pattern of the other three sentences, it would be "I wonder that you speak Klingon." In English, this means something like "I'm surprised that you speak Klingon" or "I don't understand how it can be that you speak Klingon," but this is not what the Klingon sentence means. The Klingon sentence means something more like "I am curious about whether you speak Klingon." The clumsiness here is the English, not the Klingon.</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="word-wrap: break-word"><span style="font-family:"UICTFontTextStyleBody","serif"">==========</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="word-wrap: break-word"><span style="font-family:"UICTFontTextStyleBody","serif"">So this would seem to support De'vID's phrasing. Yours still works though, as far as I can tell, and in some cases may even be preferable, when one wishes to use multiple short sentences instead of a single long one.</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="word-wrap: break-word"><span style="font-family:"UICTFontTextStyleBody","serif"">However, it's still unresolved how one might say "I wonder where you are." or "I wonder what you want." Perhaps Klingons never say anything quite like that, butif they do, I think your suggestion (question? + jISIv.)</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Regarding questions as objects:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">We do have a canon example, from EuroTalk: {nuq Datlhutlh DaneH?}<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">However, it's worth noting that this is still a question, and {nuq} still fills the same role as in a simple sentence.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">In other words, {nuq} doesn't become a relative pronoun or anything like that.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">So, this doesn't motivate, say, translating "I wonder what they're drinking." as {nuq lutlhutlhtaH 'e' vISIv}<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I would instead interpret this Klingon sentence as "What is it that I wonder whether or not they're drinking?", which is not a question I'd expect to hear outside of a course on mind-reading.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">This particular statement can probably be rephrased as a question (nuq lutlhutlhtaH?) in most circumstances, but other statements of wonderment may require different solutions.<o:p></o:p></p>
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1 nov 2014 kl. 22:10 skrev lojmIt tI'wI' nuv 'utlh <<a href="mailto:[email protected]";>[email protected]</a>>:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">You have a good point, that {-chugh} turns what would be a sentence into a dependent clause, and {‘e’} is for “Sentence As Object”, not “Dependent Clause As Object”, but you’ve apparently missed the use of {neH} meaning “only”.<br>
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The literal translation (if Klingon were a code) would be:<br>
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"Well done. I wonder if only I did not see the word-joke."<br>
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That makes sense in English, but it doesn’t really make sense in Klingon because, as you point out, the grammar is broken.<br>
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I’d go with something like:<br>
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nIteb mu’qID vIghovbe’pu’’a’? jISIv.<br>
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or<br>
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mu’qID vIghovbe’pu’. lughovbe’pu’’a’ latlhpu' je?<br>
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Another somewhat controversial grammar issue is whether or not {‘e’} works with “Question As Object”. If that was ever resolved, I don’t remember it. I’m among the doubters that it works.<br>
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For me, that’s what makes {SIv} a challenge to use well, except as a simple statement.<br>
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Though I suspect I’m about to be corrected and reminded of canon I’ve forgotten...<br>
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lojmIt tI’wI’ nuv ‘utlh<br>
Door Repair Guy, Retired Honorably<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Nov 1, 2014, at 2:38 AM, De'vID <<a href="mailto:[email protected]";>[email protected]</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">SuStel:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Or not so obvious. 'ach loymeH Quj vIpar.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Voragh:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">maj. mu'qID vIleghbe'chugh jIH neH 'e' vISIv. HIchuH!<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I read that as "I wonder whether he'd want it, if I didn't see the<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">word-joke." Doesn't {SIv} already contain the sense of "wonder if"? I<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">don't think {-chugh} can combine with {SIv} like that, though.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">-- <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">De'vID<o:p></o:p></p>
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