tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Sat Nov 01 15:59:15 2014

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Re: [Tlhingan-hol] "Knitting" in Klingon

lojmIt tI'wI' nuv 'utlh ([email protected]) 

<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=windows-1252"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class="">This would almost support De’vID’s phrasing… The canon example’s English translation fits it, but without {-chugh} in the Klingon version.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">mu’qID lughov latlhpu’ ‘e’ vISIv.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I wonder whether or not others recognize the word-joke.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">So, basically, when using {‘e’} with {SIv}, the translation is more like “wonder if, wonder about, wonder whether or not."</div><br class=""><div class="">
<div class=""><div class="">lojmIt tI’wI’ nuv ‘utlh</div><div class="">Door Repair Guy, Retired Honorably</div></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
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<br class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Nov 1, 2014, at 5:51 PM, Felix Malmenbeck &lt;<a href="mailto:[email protected]"; class="">[email protected]</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class="">

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<div class="">To the best of my knowledge, the only known example of SIv with an object:</div>
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<div class="">{tlhIngan Hol Dajatlh 'e' vISIv.}</div>
<div class=""><a href="http://klingonska.org/canon/search/?file=1998-06-holqed-07-2.txt&amp;get=source"; class="">http://klingonska.org/canon/search/?file=1998-06-holqed-07-2.txt&amp;get=source</a></div>
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<div class="">Marc goes into some detail on this, so he seems to have thought it through:</div>
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<pre style="word-wrap: break-word;" class=""><font face="UICTFontTextStyleBody" class=""><span style="white-space: normal; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);" class="">The fourth example is weird from an English translation point of view,
but it falls right in line in Klingon. If the English translation matched the
pattern of the other three sentences, it would be "I wonder that you speak
Klingon." In English, this means something like "I'm surprised that you
speak Klingon" or "I don't understand how it can be that you speak
Klingon," but this is not what the Klingon sentence means. The Klingon
sentence means something more like "I am curious about whether you speak
Klingon." The clumsiness here is the English, not the Klingon.</span></font></pre>
<pre style="word-wrap: break-word;" class=""><font face="UICTFontTextStyleBody" class=""><span style="white-space: normal; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);" class="">==========</span></font></pre>
<pre style="word-wrap: break-word;" class=""><font face="UICTFontTextStyleBody" class=""><span style="white-space: normal; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);" class="">So this would seem to support De'vID's phrasing. Yours still works though, as far as I can tell, and in some cases may even be preferable, when one wishes to use multiple short sentences instead of a single long one.</span></font></pre>
<pre style="word-wrap: break-word;" class=""><font face="UICTFontTextStyleBody" class=""><span style="white-space: normal;" class="">However, it's still unresolved how one might say "I wonder where you are." or "I wonder what you want." Perhaps Klingons never say anything quite like that, butif they do, I think your suggestion (question? + jISIv.)</span></font></pre>
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<div class="">Regarding questions as objects:</div>
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<div class="">We do have a canon example, from EuroTalk: {nuq Datlhutlh DaneH?}</div>
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<div class="">However, it's worth noting that this is still a question, and {nuq} still fills the same role as in a simple sentence.</div>
<div class="">In other words, {nuq} doesn't become a relative pronoun or anything like that.</div>
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<div class="">So, this doesn't motivate, say, translating "I wonder what they're drinking." as {nuq lutlhutlhtaH 'e' vISIv}</div>
<div class="">I would instead interpret this Klingon sentence as "What is it that I wonder whether or not they're drinking?", which is not a question I'd expect to hear outside of a course on mind-reading.</div>
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<div class="">This particular statement can probably be rephrased as a question (nuq lutlhutlhtaH?) in most circumstances, but other statements of wonderment may require different solutions.</div>
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1 nov 2014 kl. 22:10 skrev lojmIt tI'wI' nuv 'utlh &lt;<a href="mailto:[email protected]"; class="">[email protected]</a>&gt;:<br class="">
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<div class=""><span class="">You have a good point, that {-chugh} turns what would be a sentence into a dependent clause, and {‘e’} is for “Sentence As Object”, not “Dependent Clause As Object”, but you’ve apparently missed the use of {neH} meaning “only”.</span><br class="">
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<span class="">The literal translation (if Klingon were a code) would be:</span><br class="">
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<span class="">"Well done. I wonder if only I did not see the word-joke."</span><br class="">
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<span class="">That makes sense in English, but it doesn’t really make sense in Klingon because, as you point out, the grammar is broken.</span><br class="">
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<span class="">I’d go with something like:</span><br class="">
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<span class="">nIteb mu’qID vIghovbe’pu’’a’? jISIv.</span><br class="">
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<span class="">or</span><br class="">
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<span class="">mu’qID vIghovbe’pu’. lughovbe’pu’’a’ latlhpu' je?</span><br class="">
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<span class="">Another somewhat controversial grammar issue is whether or not {‘e’} works with “Question As Object”. If that was ever resolved, I don’t remember it. I’m among the doubters that it works.</span><br class="">
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<span class="">For me, that’s what makes {SIv} a challenge to use well, except as a simple statement.</span><br class="">
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<span class="">Though I suspect I’m about to be corrected and reminded of canon I’ve forgotten...</span><br class="">
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<span class="">lojmIt tI’wI’ nuv ‘utlh</span><br class="">
<span class="">Door Repair Guy, Retired Honorably</span><br class="">
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<blockquote type="cite" class=""><span class="">On Nov 1, 2014, at 2:38 AM, De'vID &lt;<a href="mailto:[email protected]"; class="">[email protected]</a>&gt; wrote:</span><br class="">
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<blockquote type="cite" class=""><span class="">SuStel:</span><br class="">
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<blockquote type="cite" class=""><span class="">Or not so obvious. 'ach loymeH Quj vIpar.</span><br class="">
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<blockquote type="cite" class=""><span class="">Voragh:</span><br class="">
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<blockquote type="cite" class=""><span class="">maj. &nbsp;mu'qID vIleghbe'chugh jIH neH 'e' vISIv. &nbsp;HIchuH!</span><br class="">
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<blockquote type="cite" class=""><span class="">I read that as "I wonder whether he'd want it, if I didn't see the</span><br class="">
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<blockquote type="cite" class=""><span class="">word-joke." Doesn't {SIv} already contain the sense of "wonder if"? I</span><br class="">
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<blockquote type="cite" class=""><span class="">don't think {-chugh} can combine with {SIv} like that, though.</span><br class="">
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<blockquote type="cite" class=""><span class="">-- </span><br class="">
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<blockquote type="cite" class=""><span class="">De'vID</span><br class="">
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