tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Wed Jun 18 07:19:58 2014
[Date Prev][Date Next][Thread Prev][Thread Next]
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] 'arDaq
On 6/18/2014 9:50 AM, [email protected] wrote:
It may be clear to you that {quSDaq 'ar nav vIlannIS?} is correct and
{quS 'arDaq nav vIlannIS?} is incorrect, but it's less clear to the
rest of us that you are necessarily right.
lugh De'vID 'e' ponbe'. vuDDaj nujatlh neH. jIHvaD bIjatlhbe'.
The issue is that Type 5 noun suffixes migrate from the noun to
which they'd normally apply in two known instances:
1. In a noun phrase consisting of a noun followed by an adjective
describing the noun, the adjective gets the noun's Type 5 suffix.
{quS tInDaq nav yIlan.}
2. In a noun-noun construction the first noun can't have a Type 5
noun suffix. It goes to the second noun.
There is no such rule that I'm aware of. You can't have a type 5 noun
suffix on the first noun of a noun-noun construction, but there's no
rule about it migrating.
This is an odd rule since it's non-trivial trying to come up with an
example where you'd be tempted to put the Type 5 on the first noun.
Maybe I've just been following this rule so long that I can't think
of a reason to want to break it...
Krankor has been known to break this rule with his {mIvDaq yIH} "tribble
in a helmet" (i.e., cat in the hat). Okrand also breaks the rule on the
Bird of Prey poster, though I can't recall the exact phrases. I've seen
lots of people on this list break the rule in the same way, so it's not
non-trivial.
Anyway, until we saw rule #1, we'd be just as sure as you are that
{-Daq} goes on the noun, because it's a noun suffix and {'ar} isn't a
noun. But adjectives aren't nouns, either, and {quS 'ar} may very
well be the kind of noun phrase that gets the Type 5 migrated to the
end of the phrase instead of following the noun within the phrase.
You're looking at it as if you're starting with the phrase {quS 'ar} and
trying to figure out where to put {-Daq}. Why not look at it as if
you're starting with {quSDaq} and trying to figure out where to put {'ar}?
Or, to state it another way, {quSDaq} is a noun. {'ar} goes after the
noun. No further known rule applies.
We simply don't know. The topic has not been raised until now.
It think it probably has, but no one has searched for a link to the
archives.
On Jun 18, 2014, at 5:37 AM, De'vID <[email protected]> wrote:
Qov:
I imagine that at some point I have said something like one of
the following in conversation, completely unaware that I was
doing anything odd.
?quS 'arDaq nav vIlannIS? - How many chairs do I need to place
paper on? ?HoH 'armo' bortaS wISuq?- How many killings will we
get vengeance for? ?nuv 'arvaD Soj wIje'nIS? - How many people
do we need to buy food for?
Voragh:
Based on no canon whatsoever, I would place the suffix on the
noun:
?quSDaq 'ar nav vIlannIS? ?HoHmo' 'ar bortaS wISuq?
[Don't forget the verb {noD} "retaliate, seek revenge": ?HoHmo'
'ar manoD?]
?nuvvaD 'ar Soj wIje'nIS?
I don't have time to do more searching, but have we seen any of
the other question words used with these suffixes?
In TKD 6.4, only {nuq} and {'Iv} are said to occupy the place that
would have been taken by the answer in the sentence. It is said of
{'ar} that it follows the noun to which it refers (which can't be
plural). There's no hint that it behaves anything like {nuq} or
{'Iv}. Not all the question words are nouns.
Since {quS} is the noun in {quS 'ar} "how many chairs", to me it's
fairly clear that "at/on how many chairs" is {quSDaq 'ar} and not
*{quS 'arDaq}.
Qov:
These two feel weirder, especially the last. I would omit the
–‘e’ ?tera’Daq be’ ‘IH ‘ar tu’lu’? – How many beautiful women
are there on Earth? ?muj mu’tlhegh ‘ar’e’ qonbogh Qov?
No problem accepting {tera'Daq be' 'IH 'ar tu'lu'}, though I'd
also accept {tera'Daq be' 'ar 'IH tu'lu'}. The latter follows the
letter of TKD more closely, since it says that adjectival verbs
immediately follow the noun, whereas of {'ar} it merely says it
follows the noun.
I'd have put the suffix {-'e'} on the noun {mu'tlhegh} rather than
on the question word {'ar} following the noun, as in {muj
mu'tlhegh'e' 'ar qonbogh Qov}.
-- De'vID
_______________________________________________ Tlhingan-hol
mailing list [email protected]
http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
_______________________________________________ Tlhingan-hol mailing
list [email protected]
http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
--
SuStel
http://www.trimboli.name/
_______________________________________________
Tlhingan-hol mailing list
[email protected]
http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol