tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Wed Jun 18 06:51:03 2014
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Re: [Tlhingan-hol] 'arDaq
It may be clear to you that {quSDaq 'ar nav vIlannIS?} is correct and {quS 'arDaq nav vIlannIS?} is incorrect, but it's less clear to the rest of us that you are necessarily right. The issue is that Type 5 noun suffixes migrate from the noun to which they'd normally apply in two known instances:
1. In a noun phrase consisting of a noun followed by an adjective describing the noun, the adjective gets the noun's Type 5 suffix. {quS tInDaq nav yIlan.}
2. In a noun-noun construction the first noun can't have a Type 5 noun suffix. It goes to the second noun. This is an odd rule since it's non-trivial trying to come up with an example where you'd be tempted to put the Type 5 on the first noun. Maybe I've just been following this rule so long that I can't think of a reason to want to break it...
Anyway, until we saw rule #1, we'd be just as sure as you are that {-Daq} goes on the noun, because it's a noun suffix and {'ar} isn't a noun. But adjectives aren't nouns, either, and {quS 'ar} may very well be the kind of noun phrase that gets the Type 5 migrated to the end of the phrase instead of following the noun within the phrase.
We simply don't know. The topic has not been raised until now.
On Jun 18, 2014, at 5:37 AM, De'vID <[email protected]> wrote:
> Qov:
>>> I imagine that at some point I have said something like one of the
>>> following in conversation, completely unaware that I was doing anything odd.
>>>
>>> ?quS 'arDaq nav vIlannIS? - How many chairs do I need to place paper on?
>>> ?HoH 'armo' bortaS wISuq?- How many killings will we get vengeance for?
>>> ?nuv 'arvaD Soj wIje'nIS? - How many people do we need to buy food for?
>
> Voragh:
>> Based on no canon whatsoever, I would place the suffix on the noun:
>>
>> ?quSDaq 'ar nav vIlannIS?
>> ?HoHmo' 'ar bortaS wISuq?
>>
>> [Don't forget the verb {noD} "retaliate, seek revenge": ?HoHmo' 'ar manoD?]
>>
>> ?nuvvaD 'ar Soj wIje'nIS?
>>
>> I don't have time to do more searching, but have we seen any of the other question words used with these suffixes?
>
> In TKD 6.4, only {nuq} and {'Iv} are said to occupy the place that
> would have been taken by the answer in the sentence. It is said of
> {'ar} that it follows the noun to which it refers (which can't be
> plural). There's no hint that it behaves anything like {nuq} or {'Iv}.
> Not all the question words are nouns.
>
> Since {quS} is the noun in {quS 'ar} "how many chairs", to me it's
> fairly clear that "at/on how many chairs" is {quSDaq 'ar} and not
> *{quS 'arDaq}.
>
> Qov:
>>> These two feel weirder, especially the last. I would omit the –‘e’
>>> ?tera’Daq be’ ‘IH ‘ar tu’lu’? – How many beautiful women are there on Earth?
>>> ?muj mu’tlhegh ‘ar’e’ qonbogh Qov?
>
> No problem accepting {tera'Daq be' 'IH 'ar tu'lu'}, though I'd also
> accept {tera'Daq be' 'ar 'IH tu'lu'}. The latter follows the letter of
> TKD more closely, since it says that adjectival verbs immediately
> follow the noun, whereas of {'ar} it merely says it follows the noun.
>
> I'd have put the suffix {-'e'} on the noun {mu'tlhegh} rather than on
> the question word {'ar} following the noun, as in {muj mu'tlhegh'e'
> 'ar qonbogh Qov}.
>
> --
> De'vID
>
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