tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Tue Jun 17 07:25:17 2014
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Re: [Tlhingan-hol] 'arDaq
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">This thread is interesting, but *{‘arDIch} is not actually attested anywhere. (Correct me if I’m wrong.) {-DIch} has only been used on numbers (including “the
technically ungrammatical term {paghDIch} (zeroth)”) and the noun {Hoch} (i.e. {HochDIch} “allth”, cf. KGT p.176).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">AFAIK {-DIch} has never been used on a “question word” (who, what, when, where, how, how much). In fact, the only question word that has ever taken any suffix
of any kind is {‘ar}:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">st.k (2/1999: {'arlogh} “how many times?” a word that functions adverbially, made up of the question word {'ar} “how much? how many?” and the special number
suffix {-logh} times (as in “six times”)<br>
<br>
So, although I would easily understand *{lojmIt ‘arDIch DawIv}, it doesn’t appear to be kosher Klingon and would be considered a nonce expression or { mu'mey ru}:<br>
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KGT 176: Sometimes words or phrases are coined for a specific occasion, intentionally violating grammatical rules in order to have an impact. Usually these are never heard again, though some gain currency and might as well be classified as slang. Klingon grammarians
call such forms {mu'mey ru'} (temporary words). Sometimes, {mu'mey ru'} fill a void--that is, give voice to an idea for which there is no standard (or even slang) expression; sometimes, like slang, they are just more emphatic ways of expressing an idea. A
common way to create these constructions is to bend the grammatical rules somewhat, violating the norm in a way that is so obvious that there is no question that it is being done intentionally. To do this is expressed in Klingon as {pabHa'} (misfollow [the
rules], follow [the rules] wrongly).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">[Note this is the same page that discusses {paghDIch} and {HochDIch}.]<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><br>
KGT 181: No one accepts such constructions as grammatical; their inappropriateness, the way they grate on the Klingon ear, is exactly what gives them elocutionary clout. A visitor may hear one of these odd suffixes occasionally, but, as with other intentionally
ungrammatical forms, it is best to avoid using them until one is extremely comfortable with the nuances of Klingon style.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">In light of this, it’s probably best to avoid these forms in lessons for beginners – which I believe was Qov’s original question.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">--<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">Voragh<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">Ca'Non Master of the Klingons<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> Brent Kesler [mailto:[email protected]]
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<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, June 17, 2014 7:52 AM<br>
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<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">wanbej He 'e' vIHar:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">{lojmIt 'arDIch DawIv?} --> {lojmIt wejDich vIwIv.} --> {lojmIt wej vIwIv}.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Tue, Jun 17, 2014 at 12:05 AM, Robyn Stewart <<a href="mailto:[email protected]"; target="_blank">[email protected]</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I too don’t have a problem with lojmIt ‘arDIch DawIv? being answered with lojmIt wej
vIwIv, but understand that it isn’t an exact match. I’m not sure what the question that matches exactly in English is.<br>
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</span><span style="color:#1F497D"><br>
</span>On Mon, Jun 16, 2014 at 5:57 PM, <<a href="mailto:[email protected]"; target="_blank">[email protected]</a>> wrote:<span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">If I ask, "How many doors do you choose?" it's simple. {lojmIt 'ar DawIv?} You answer "I choose three doors." {wej lojmIt vIwIv.}<br>
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If I ask, "Which door do you choose?", it's still simple {lojmIt 'arDIch DawIv?} You answer "I choose the third door." {lojmIt wejDIch vIwIv.}<br>
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There doesn't seem to be a way to ask the question that is answered by {lojmIt wej vIwIv}. "I choose door #3."<o:p></o:p></p>
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