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Re: [Tlhingan-hol] 'arDaq

lojmitti7wi7nuv ([email protected])



Wow.

I understand this both ways -- the way Qov said it and the way voragh said it.

And so far as I know, there's a core issue that Okrand hasn't explained yet. Here's the first layer of the onion:

{'ar} is a "question word".

Grammatically, question words do not have a place of their own in a Klingon sentence. They borrow the placement from the word that replaces the question word in answering the question. Some question words, then, act like nouns (nuq, 'Iv) and are placed in the sentence accordingly. 

And as simple as this may appear, sometimes, these question words act like pronouns, which makes them act like "to be" verbs. Hence both {ghaH 'Iv?} and {'Iv ghaH?} are acceptable word order, and it's okay to say {nuq 'oH Dochvam'e'?} or {Dochvam nuq?}. So we are already in a messy little zone of Klingon grammar.

Some question words act adverbially (chorgh, nuqDaq, chay'). They go where the adverbial would go in the answer, at the beginning of the sentence.

{'ar} and its variants acts like a number. And numbers are a little weird. Notice that our number words are not listed in the dictionary as "nouns". They are listed as "numbers". Smells like {chuvmey}, my friends.

Sometimes numbers act like nouns, like when they stand alone. When they describe the degree of plurality of a noun, they oddly precede the noun. This is really a kind of adjectival function, but adjectival verbs used adjectivally always follow the noun they describe. (This difference in placement between numbers and adjectives in Klingon has secretly bothered me for decades.) So, numbers are weird when used with a noun to describe how many of the noun we are talking about. There is no external rule putting numbers in a class of other words, like "nouns". They are in a class of their own.

And when we talk about "door number three", in Klingon, it's {lojmIt wej}, which is pretty much unique in the grammar. There's no justification for it out side of "that's where you put the number when that's what it means."

I've just been hit by a truck.

{'ar} is the only question word that does NOT go where the word that replaces it goes in the answer.

It follows a noun when the number would precede it in the answer. No other question word behaves like this.

But all of the variants on {'ar} behave like normal question words. They go where the words that replace them would go in the answer.

{'arDIch} follows the noun when the number-Dich would follow the noun.

{'arlogh} goes where the adverbial would go, at the beginning of the sentence.

So, {'ar} is weird enough that we can't really guess whether a Type 5 noun suffix on the noun that {'ar} is grammatically linked to would stick to the noun, or migrate to follow {'ar}. 

The closest thing to rules we have about this suggest it would migrate, since {'ar} is acting like a adjective, and we would migrate if the word were an adjective, and if we insist that {'ar} is functioning as a noun, then it's the second noun of a noun-noun construction, and we have that weird, arbitrary rule that says the Type 5 has to go on the second noun.

So, if we have to guess, we probably have to go with Qov on this one, even though voragh's version still makes sense, and might be right, since everything about {'ar} is completely arbitrary, and Okrand has never addressed this specific detail about this very strange little word.

It would be really nice if Okrand would address this, though people might want to give him some time to think about it first. I think it's less simple than it initially appears to be.

muSIvmoHchu' <<'ar>>.

Thank you, Qov, for a mind-opening topic.

Now, if I can only find my way home while I continue to think about it...

On Jun 16, 2014, at 4:11 PM, Steven Boozer <[email protected]> wrote:

> Qov:
>> I'd do an archive search but ... website search sucks.
>> Have we ever discussed the extension of 'ar beyond subject and object?
>> We have the examples:
>> 
>>  nIn 'ar wIghaj?
>>  Haw'pu' yaS 'ar?
> 
> Here are the examples I know of:
> 
> 'ar  how many?  how much?
> 
>  Haw'pu' yaS 'ar
>  How many officers fled? TKD
> 
>  nIn 'ar wIghaj 
>  How much fuel do we have (left)? TKD/CK  
> 
>  Huch 'ar DaneH? 
>  How much money do you want? TKD
> 
>  Dochvetlh DIlmeH Huch 'ar DaneH 
>  How much do you want for that? TKD
> 
>  mughoS 'avwI' 'ar 
>  How many guards are coming? CK 
> 
> 
> 'arlogh  how many times? (st.k) 
> 
>  'arlogh Qoylu'pu' 
>  How many times has (someone) heard (it)? 
>  How many times has it been heard? 
>   (i.e. What time is it?) [st.k 2/99]
> 
>  'arlogh wab Qoylu'pu'? 
>  How many times has someone heard the sound? 
>  How many times has the sound been heard? 
>   (i.e. What time is it?) [st.k 2/99]
> 
>  qen 'arlogh Qoylu'pu'? 
>  Recently, how many times has someone heard it?
>   (i.e. What time is it?) [st.k 2/99]
> 
> [Any examples of either in the paq'batlh? I haven't seen any.]
> 
> 
>> I imagine that at some point I have said something like one of the
>> following in conversation, completely unaware that I was doing anything odd.
>> 
>> ?quS 'arDaq nav vIlannIS? - How many chairs do I need to place paper on?
>> ?HoH 'armo' bortaS wISuq?- How many killings will we get vengeance for?
>> ?nuv 'arvaD Soj wIje'nIS? - How many people do we need to buy food for?
> 
> Based on no canon whatsoever, I would place the suffix on the noun:
> 
>  ?quSDaq 'ar nav vIlannIS? 
>  ?HoHmo' 'ar bortaS wISuq?
> 
> [Don't forget the verb {noD} "retaliate, seek revenge":  ?HoHmo' 'ar manoD?]
> 
>  ?nuvvaD 'ar Soj wIje'nIS? 
> 
> I don't have time to do more searching, but have we seen any of the other question words used with these suffixes?  
> 
> 
> --
> Voragh
> Ca'Non Master of the Klingons
> 
> 
> 
> 
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