tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Fri Jun 13 23:17:26 2014
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Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Canon surrounding order of pre-OVS elements
- From: lojmIt tI'wI' nuv 'utlh <[email protected]>
- Subject: Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Canon surrounding order of pre-OVS elements
- Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2014 02:17:08 -0400
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<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=windows-1252"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"><div>Similar to what others have stated earlier, I think it’s fine to say, “As a general rule, adverbs precede Type-5 suffixed nouns, but grammar isn’t math or computer programming. There are exceptions to general rules, and the exceptions often involve levels of subtlety that a new student of the language may learn over time, but should not become overly concerned with in the early stages of learning the language."</div><div><br></div><div>It’s like nostrils, scattered all about. You may understand it later, but nobody can explain it to you. There is no short-cut to this part of the learning process.</div><div><br></div><div>Or, to reuse the Harley Davidson bumper sticker: “If I have to explain it, you wouldn’t understand."</div><br><div>
<div><div>lojmIt tI’wI’ nuv ‘utlh</div><div>Door Repair Guy, Retired Honorably</div></div><div><br></div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
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<br><div><div>On Jun 13, 2014, at 11:25 PM, Robyn Stewart <<a href="mailto:[email protected]";>[email protected]</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite">
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<!-- Converted from text/rtf format --><p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-ca"><font face="Calibri">This</font></span><span lang="en-ca"> <font face="Calibri">discussion question</font></span><span lang="en-ca"> <font face="Calibri">concerns the relative order of items that precede the OVS struc</font></span><span lang="en-ca"><font face="Calibri">ture of a phrase: timestamps, adverbs, and nouns bearing type-5 suffixes.<br>
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<font face="Calibri">TKD</font></span><span lang="en-ca"><font face="Calibri"> 6.1 tells us that the nouns that are neither O nor S precede the OVS.</font></span><span lang="en-ca"><br>
<font face="Calibri">TKD 6.7 tells us that the usual order is timestamp then adverb</font></span><span lang="en-ca"><font face="Calibri">, but suggests elements other than timestamps might precede the adverb.</font></span><span lang="en-ca"><br>
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<font face="Calibri">reH HIvje’lIjDaq ‘Iwghargh Datu’jaj</font></span><span lang="en-ca"><font face="Calibri">. shows us that an adverb can precede a noun with a type-5<br>
</font></span><span lang="en-ca"><font face="Calibri">tlhIngan Dujmey law’qu’</font></span><span lang="en-ca"> <font face="Calibri">SommeyDaq</font></span><span lang="en-ca"><font face="Calibri"> batlh cha’lu’.</font></span><span lang="en-ca"><font face="Calibri"> shows that the adverb can follow it.</font></span><span lang="en-ca"><br>
<font face="Calibri">HaqwI’’e’ DaH yISam shows t</font></span><span lang="en-ca"><font face="Calibri">hat it can follow it, but is rather a special case.</font></span><span lang="en-ca"><br>
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<font face="Calibri">Do we have any canon showing a noun with a type-5</font></span><span lang="en-ca"> <font face="Calibri">suffix and a timestamp in the same sentence?</font></span><span lang="en-ca"><font face="Calibri"> Are there any other examples with a type-5 noun suffix and a</font></span><span lang="en-ca"><font face="Calibri">n adverb in the same sentence? (Disregarding neH and jay’)</font></span><span lang="en-ca"><font face="Calibri">.</font></span><span lang="en-ca"> <font face="Calibri">I’m pretty sure we’re not so fortunate as to have an example with all three.<br>
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(If someone whose brain is not wired for memorizing or composing wants to make a lasting contri</font></span><span lang="en-ca"><font face="Calibri">bution to the language, a concordance that made the paq’batlh searchable on such criteria would be worth its weight in gold pressed latinum.</font></span><span lang="en-ca"><font face="Calibri">)</font></span><span lang="en-ca"><br>
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<font face="Calibri">Would anyone be uncomfortable with me telling beginners that the</font></span><span lang="en-ca"> <font face="Calibri">information we have</font></span><span lang="en-ca"> <font face="Calibri">suggest</font></span><span lang="en-ca"><font face="Calibri">s</font></span><span lang="en-ca"><font face="Calibri"> that the</font></span><span lang="en-ca"><font face="Calibri"> timestamp</font></span><span lang="en-ca"><font face="Calibri"> should precede the noun with the</font></span><span lang="en-ca"> <font face="Calibri">t</font></span><span lang="en-ca"><font face="Calibri">ype</font></span><span lang="en-ca"><font face="Calibri"> 5, but that when</font></span><span lang="en-ca"> <font face="Calibri">i</font></span><span lang="en-ca"><font face="Calibri">t improves clarity</font></span><span lang="en-ca"><font face="Calibri">,</font></span><span lang="en-ca"> <font face="Calibri">the timestamp might</font></span><span lang="en-ca"><font face="Calibri"> follow</font></span><span lang="en-ca"><font face="Calibri">, as the adverb does</font></span><span lang="en-ca"> <font face="Calibri">in the complex phrase</font></span><span lang="en-ca"> <font face="Calibri">above</font></span><span lang="en-ca"> <font face="Calibri">about the em</font></span><span lang="en-ca"><font face="Calibri">b</font></span><span lang="en-ca"><font face="Calibri">lem being emblazoned on hulls</font></span><span lang="en-ca"><font face="Calibri">?</font></span><span lang="en-ca"></span></p><p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-ca"><font face="Calibri">My examples</font></span><span lang="en-ca"><font face="Calibri"> – anyone take issue?</font></span><span lang="en-ca"><br>
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<font face="Calibri">DaHjaj ‘etlhlIjmo’ maQap.</font></span><span lang="en-ca"><br>
<font face="Calibri">wanI’vammo’ DaHjaj</font></span><span lang="en-ca"><font face="Calibri"> bInoy.</font></span><span lang="en-ca"><br>
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<font face="Calibri">- Qov</font></span><span lang="en-ca"><br>
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</span></p><div><span lang="en-ca"><font face="Calibri"></font></span><span lang="en-ca"> </span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div>
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