tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Mon Jun 02 11:39:08 2014
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Re: [Tlhingan-hol] -nIS : whose volition?
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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-CA link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I mean a few different things in that posting. I’m not sure which you were asking for an example of, so I’m combing through looking for something I didn’t give examples of.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I already gave the ‘face up” example of what I meant by an idiom. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><br>Here’s an instance where a hockey team owner is oblivious to there being anything wrong with saying “broads belong on their back” in a radio interview. It’s old, but that’s the society I grew up in. I was reluctant to google the more vulgar forms of the statement, and do not wish to discuss this further.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><a href="http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1946&dat=19790307&id=-YgxAAAAIBAJ&sjid=9qEFAAAAIBAJ&pg=7063,3335888";>http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1946&dat=19790307&id=-YgxAAAAIBAJ&sjid=9qEFAAAAIBAJ&pg=7063,3335888</a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>We were already discussing the example of </span>DungDaq legh 'ej QotnIStaH romuluSngan be'pu', the canon example of the subject of a sentence not being the one who has the need specified by –nIS.<br><br><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>jagh mernIS bachlIj was my example of a sentence where the speaker needs the thing to happen, not the grammatical subject.<br><br><o:p></o:p></span></p><pre><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>The –law’ analogy I referred to is discussed in this thread: <a href="/tlhIngan-Hol/2013/November/msg00068.html";>/tlhIngan-Hol/2013/November/msg00068.html</a>. I mostly agree with De’vID, but I still think that if I am providing a point of view narrative for torgh, I can use suffixes to indicate his point of view, such that if he would say </span>nguSDI' vIQoylaw' I can write nguSDI’ Qoylaw’ torgh, to mean Torgh had some uncertainty about what he heard, and l<span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>ikewise if he would say “mangHey vIlegh” I can say “mangHey legh torgh.” In English I could say “Rob saw a mouse” or “Rob saw what seemed to be a mouse” and have it understood that the seeming was from the characters point of view, assuming the narrator was neither omniscient nor another character. But I fully agree that I cannot call something that at first appears to be a book, but isn’t actually one a paqHey unless I am describing the point of view of someone who is still pretty much expecting that it’s a book. <o:p></o:p></span></pre><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Whatever the question was, I hope that covers it.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>- Qov<br><br><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> MorphemeAddict [mailto:[email protected]] <br><b>Sent:</b> June 2, 2014 10:30<br><b>To:</b> Robyn Stewart<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Tlhingan-hol] -nIS : whose volition?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'>Can you give an example of what you mean, Qov? <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'>lay'tel SIvten<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Mon, Jun 2, 2014 at 11:28 AM, Robyn Stewart <<a href="mailto:[email protected]"; target="_blank">[email protected]</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>I believe the DungDaq legh is exactly that, an idiom for lying on one's back, like "face up" in English. We could even say in English. "He was lying face up, his head turned to the side," or 'the decapitated bodies were laid face up".<br><br>The English version of the expression Koord uses is not an original formulation, and as a woman I'm quite familiar with the misogynist intent of the original. It is intended to mean that woman are good for nothing but receptive sex, and does not take the volition of the women, or the idea that they have needs or wants of their own into account.<br><br>The -lu' and vay' uses of -nIS don't contradict TKD to me, because in such case it is an indefinite or non-specific subject that is being said to need the thing. I was comparing the use of -nIS on non first-person subjects to mean "I need that subject to do that" to using -law' as a general sort of "seems like" instead of indicating uncertainty on the part of the speaker. I believe the latter usage is incorrect.<br><br>Even though that's the only canon, I'm pretty content with -nIS being used projectively, despite the definition in TKD, but before I put it in the course I wanted to ensure no one would feel that I was counselling beginners to do something incorrect.<br><br>- Qov<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>-----Original Message-----<br>From: De'vID [mailto:<a href="mailto:[email protected]";>[email protected]</a>]<br>Sent: June 2, 2014 4:35<br>To: tlhIngan Hol mailing list<br>Subject: Re: [Tlhingan-hol] -nIS : whose volition?<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Fri, May 30, 2014 at 3:25 AM, Robyn Stewart <<a href="mailto:[email protected]";>[email protected]</a>> wrote:<br>> Once again I am seeking to satisfy the widest possible range of<br>> competent Klingon speakers with my interpretation of TKD and canon for the beginners’<br>> course.<br>><br>> We know from TKD that type 2 verb suffixes represent the volition of<br>> the subject to perform the action of the verb. We also have the<br>> sentence from Star Trek V: DungDaq legh 'ej QotnIStaH romuluSngan<br>> be'pu' = Romulan women belong on their backs.<br><br>This line was filmed, but not part of the final cut of the movie, IIRC. It is in the deleted scenes on the DVD, though. I'll accept it as close-to-canon, but it's always seemed a little off to me... the {DungDaq legh} part doesn't make much sense, since one can obviously lie on one's side and still be looking up, unless {DungDaq legh 'ej Qot} is some sort of set expression to mean "lie on one's back". But I digress...<br><br>> Clearly in this sentence Korrd is not describing the actual volition<br>> of Romulan women, nor what he believes about what they personally<br>> need, but his own opinion, what they would need to do to satisfy him,<br>> similar to us saying, “That food needs to be in my belly.”<br><br>Type 2 indicates volition or predisposition, and I think Koord is indicating the lack of volition by the Romulan women, or perhaps (what he claims is) the predisposition on their part to lie on their backs.<br><br>> I think I say and hear things like this in Klingon all the time. Are<br>> we correct? Is Korrd’s line an aberration or regionalism? Would you<br>> feel it correct or incorrect to advise beginners to avoid this usage?<br>><br>> Would you accept the sentence:<br>><br>> jagh mernIS bachlIj.<br>><br>> Clearly the shot itself has no volition, it is the speaker (addressing<br>> the<br>> gunner) who has the need.<br><br>Yes, I'd accept it.<br><br>btw, {-nIS} has been used with both {vay'} and {-lu'} in canon.<br><br>batlh Heghlu'chugh noDnISbe' vay' - An honourable death requires no vengeance.<br>yay chavlu' 'e' bajnISlu' - Victory must be earned.<br><br>It's interesting that in the English translations, the subjects ("an honourable death" and "victory") are things which have no volition, although the Klingon are phrased to have an unspecified or indefinite subject on the verb with {-nIS}.<br><br>There's also {ghob tIvnISbe'lu'} "one need not enjoy virtue" - which might perhaps also be translated as "virtue need not be enjoyed".<br><br>--<br>De'vID<br><br>_______________________________________________<br>Tlhingan-hol mailing list<br><a href="mailto:[email protected]";>[email protected]</a><br><a href="http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol"; target="_blank">http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol</a><br><br><br>_______________________________________________<br>Tlhingan-hol mailing list<br><a href="mailto:[email protected]";>[email protected]</a><br><a href="http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol"; target="_blank">http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol</a><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></div></body></html>_______________________________________________
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