tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Mon Jun 02 08:28:21 2014

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Re: [Tlhingan-hol] -nIS : whose volition?

Robyn Stewart ([email protected]) [KLI Member] [Hol po'wI']



I believe the DungDaq legh is exactly that, an idiom for lying on one's back, like "face up"  in English.  We could even say in English. "He was lying face up, his head turned to the side," or 'the decapitated bodies were laid face up".

The English version of the expression Koord uses is not an original formulation, and as a woman I'm quite familiar with the misogynist intent of the original. It is intended to mean that woman are good for nothing but receptive sex, and does not take the volition of the women, or the idea that they have needs or wants of their own into account. 

The -lu' and vay' uses of -nIS don't contradict TKD to me, because in such case it is an indefinite or non-specific subject that is being said to need the thing. I was comparing the use of -nIS on non first-person subjects to mean "I need that subject to do that" to using -law' as a general sort of "seems like" instead of indicating uncertainty on the part of the speaker. I believe the latter usage is incorrect. 

Even though that's the only canon, I'm  pretty content with -nIS being used projectively, despite the definition in TKD, but before I put it in the course I wanted to ensure no one would feel that I was counselling beginners to do something incorrect. 

- Qov

-----Original Message-----
From: De'vID [mailto:[email protected]] 
Sent: June 2, 2014 4:35
To: tlhIngan Hol mailing list
Subject: Re: [Tlhingan-hol] -nIS : whose volition?

On Fri, May 30, 2014 at 3:25 AM, Robyn Stewart <[email protected]> wrote:
> Once again I am seeking to satisfy the widest possible range of 
> competent Klingon speakers with my interpretation of TKD and canon for the beginners’
> course.
>
> We know from TKD that type 2 verb suffixes represent the volition of 
> the subject to perform the action of the verb. We also have the 
> sentence from Star Trek V: DungDaq legh 'ej QotnIStaH romuluSngan 
> be'pu' = Romulan women belong on their backs.

This line was filmed, but not part of the final cut of the movie, IIRC. It is in the deleted scenes on the DVD, though. I'll accept it as close-to-canon, but it's always seemed a little off to me... the {DungDaq legh} part doesn't make much sense, since one can obviously lie on one's side and still be looking up, unless {DungDaq legh 'ej Qot} is some sort of set expression to mean "lie on one's back". But I digress...

> Clearly in this sentence Korrd is not describing the actual volition 
> of Romulan women, nor what he believes about what they personally 
> need, but his own opinion, what they would need to do to satisfy him, 
> similar to us saying, “That food needs to be in my belly.”

Type 2 indicates volition or predisposition, and I think Koord is indicating the lack of volition by the Romulan women, or perhaps (what he claims is) the predisposition on their part to lie on their backs.

> I think I say and hear things like this in Klingon all the time.  Are 
> we correct? Is Korrd’s line an aberration or regionalism? Would you 
> feel it correct or incorrect to advise beginners to avoid this usage?
>
> Would you accept the sentence:
>
> jagh mernIS bachlIj.
>
> Clearly the shot itself has no volition, it is the speaker (addressing 
> the
> gunner) who has the need.

Yes, I'd accept it.

btw, {-nIS} has been used with both {vay'} and {-lu'} in canon.

batlh Heghlu'chugh noDnISbe' vay' - An honourable death requires no vengeance.
yay chavlu' 'e' bajnISlu' - Victory must be earned.

It's interesting that in the English translations, the subjects ("an honourable death" and "victory") are things which have no volition, although the Klingon are phrased to have an unspecified or indefinite subject on the verb with {-nIS}.

There's also {ghob tIvnISbe'lu'} "one need not enjoy virtue" - which might perhaps also be translated as "virtue need not be enjoyed".

--
De'vID

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