tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Tue Jul 01 12:08:06 2014
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Re: [Tlhingan-hol] ghargh Doq HoD je -- loSDIch
Voragh:
>> Is it really crucial to the story that you need measurements out to two
>> decimal points? I know that Okrand says that "a Klingon ... is never
>> approximate" but this is a story, not a technical manual. I'd use the
>> closest Klingon measurement; if necessary, rounding up. E.g.
quljIb:
> Point made, however I do have at my disposal the Mountain's *exact*
> measurements. In particular the sword is *explicitly* mentioned as being
> 64 inches long.
And is this important in the story? I.e. does he win (or loose) because his sword is 4 inches longer than his adversary's?
> >> {tIqqu' HoD. jav vI' wa' 'uj 'aD. 'ej tIqqu' yanDaj. loS vI' jav
> >> loS 'uj 'aD yan.}
> >> "The Mountain was very tall. 6.1 ujs (seven feet) tall. And his
> >> sword was very long. 4.64 ujs (64 inches) long."
>
>> I'd combine some of these short sentences (and round up the measurements):
>>
>> tIqqu' HoD; jav 'uj(mey) 'aD. 'ej tIqqu' je yanDaj: vagh 'uj.
>> the mountain was very tall, measuring 6 ujs. And his sword
>> was quite long too: 5 ujs.
>>
>> I generally omit {-mey} on nouns after numbers. Seems redundant. YMMV.
>
> Wasn't too sure about combining sentences. As I've noted earlier,
> {tlhIngan Hol} seems to work best in short, choppy sentences. But if the
> Ca'Non Master says so...
Well, it's your story and I agree that Klingon works better in shorter sentences than English. But sometimes they can be too short. (Are these song lyrics that have to fit the music?)
> >> {'ughqu' HoD. Hut vI' wej cheb'a' ngI'. 'ej 'ughqu' yanDaj.
> >> Cha' vI' vagh cheb ngI' yan.}
> >> "The Mountain was massive. He weighed 9.3 cheb'a's (approx. 420-430
> >> lbs) And his sword was massive. It weighed 2.5 chebs (12-13 lbs)."
>>
>> 'ughqu' HoD; Hut cheb'a'(mey) ngI'. 'ej 'ughqu' yanDaj je: wej cheb.
>>
> >> {'ej 'ughqu' may'luchDaj. mIv je DaS tuQ HoD 'ej wamaH cheb ngI' HoD
> >> mayluch'e'}
> >> "And his armour was massive. He wore full armour, which weighed 10 chebs (50 lbs)"
>>
>> 'ej 'ughqu' may'luchDaj. mIv je DaS tuQ HoD; wa'maH cheb(mey) ngI'.
quljIb:
> >> {'ach Hod yan tIq puS, ghargh ghIntaq tIq law'}
> >> "But for all the Mountains sword was long, the Viper's spear was longer."
Voragh:
>> AFAIK you can't reverse the order of {law'} and {puS}. The {law'}
>> element comes first:
>>
>> 'ach ghargh ghIntaq tIq law' HoD yan tIq puS.
quljIb:
> "If one state of affairs in not inherently better or worse than its
> opposite, terms may occur in either order." (KGT 179)
But that applies for word play variations, i.e. using antonyms other than {law'} and {puS}. KGT continues:
Once again comparing the brave Klingon and the not-so-brave Ferengi:
tlhIngan yoH jen verengan yoH 'eS or
tlhIngan yoH 'eS verengan yoH jen
(jen, "be high"; 'eS, "be low")
tlhIngan yoH ghegh verengan yoH Hab or
tlhIngan yoH Hab verengan yoH ghegh
(ghegh, "be rough"; Hab, "be smooth")
Some conditions, on the other hand, are more highly regarded than others.
In those instances, it is essential to get the terms in the correct order.
For example, among Klingons, a task that is difficult ({Qatlh}) is more
highly valued than one that is easy ({ngeD}). Accordingly, in these creative
comparative and superlative constructions, {Qatlh} is associated with the
quality that is "many" and {ngeD} with the quality that is "few." To say
"The Klingon is braver than the Ferengi," one would have to say {tlhIngan
yoH Qatlh verengan yoH ngeD}. Reversing the order of {Qatlh} and {ngeD}
would produce the phrase {tlhIngan yoH ngeD verengan yoH Qatlh}, which,
if interpretable at all, would mean "The Klingon is less brave than
the Ferengi." Even if one really meant it, uttering such a phrase could
lead to unfortunate consequences.
Before this paragraph, Okrand reviews basic the {law'/puS} formula (KGT 179):
Another kind of bending of the grammar involves the comparative
construction--that is, the way to say that something is more or greater
than something else. In Klingon, this is expressed by a grammatical
formula: {A Q law' B Q puS}, where A and B are the two items being
compared as to a specific quality (Q), A having the greater amount of
this quality (expressed by {law'}, "be many"), B the lesser (expressed
by {puS}, "be few"):
tlhIngan yoH law' verengan yoH puS
("The Klingon is braver than the Ferengi").
As a form of word play, antonyms (that is, words with opposite meanings)
other than {law'} and {puS} are sometimes plugged into the formula. The
resulting phrases literally make no sense at all, but because of the
uniqueness of the {law'/puS} phrases within Klingon grammar, they are
always understood.
> Being longer isn't normally better or worse than being shorter, although
> since in battle length *does* give one an advantage, I can see your
> point.
But Okrand is referring to the substitutes for {law'} and {puS}, not the quality (Q) being compared. There are also the variant formulas {A Q law' B Q law'} or {A Q puS B Q puS} - both meaning "A is a Q as B" - but *{A Q puS B Q law'} isn't listed. Apparently "more" is always better than "less".
--
Voragh
Ca'Non Master of the Klingons
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