tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Tue Dec 16 14:48:51 2014

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Re: [Tlhingan-hol] keeping "KLI folklore" words in word lists

De'vID (de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com)



<p dir="ltr"><br>
De&#39;vID:<br>
&gt;&gt; I think everyone has made very good points, and the choice comes down<br>
&gt;&gt; to a trade-off.</p>
<p dir="ltr">Quvar:<br>
&gt; No matter how you decide, you should make a clear difference between<br>
&gt; any fake words (from &quot;extended canon&quot;) and those words approved (or &quot;vetted&quot;<br>
&gt; or whatever you call it) by Marc Okrand, because that is what is considered<br>
&gt; canon.</p>
<p dir="ltr">quSDaq bIba&#39;.</p>
<p dir="ltr">It seems like most list regulars (at least of those who have replied) want KLI slang removed. I&#39;ve already removed *{HIlel} and {pabpo&#39;} (and *{tlhoqo&#39;} and *{yID} were never in the database).</p>
<p dir="ltr">I guess from now on, if any grammarian welcomes a newbie to the list by identifying himself/herself as {taghwI&#39; pabpo&#39;}, the newbie will just be confused if they&#39;re relying on {boQwI&#39;}.</p>
<p dir="ltr">Quvar:<br>
&gt; For instance, {jInjoq} was vetted by Okrand, so I see this as a true, canon,<br>
&gt; proper, kosher tlhIngan Hol word. It needs no question mark. Maybe you just<br>
&gt; forgot to remove it. The word is not questionable any more.</p>
<p dir="ltr">I specifically raised this question about the &quot;vetted&quot; words from DeCandido&#39;s The Klingon Art of War:</p>
<p dir="ltr">De&#39;vID:<br>
&gt; Speaking of which, since Marc Okrand has &quot;vetted&quot; some of DeCandido&#39;s<br>
&gt; words at the latest qepHom, should these be promoted from extended<br>
&gt; canon to canon? I&#39;ve added {batqul} and {qInlat}, since these are<br>
&gt; words which have appeared in Star Trek canon (TV episodes), and I see<br>
&gt; Marc Okrand as only confirming their original Klingon spelling. OTOH,<br>
&gt; I see a word like *{ngengroQ}, which has appeared only in DeCandido&#39;s<br>
&gt; book and not on any Star Trek episode (AFAIK), as not a canon word,<br>
&gt; though I&#39;ve included it as extended canon.</p>
<p dir="ltr">Should words like {ngengroQ} and {QIngheb}, which were apparently generated using Bing translator, be considered canon even if they were vetted by Okrand after the fact? If they had appeared in a TV episode or movie, I&#39;d have considered him to only be confirming their spelling. (So, for example, {&#39;a&#39;Setbur} is now the canon spelling of Azetbur, and {Da&#39;ar} is how you write &quot;Dahar Master&quot;.) But AFAIK {ngengroQ} does not appear anywhere except in DeCandido&#39;s book. Perhaps I am conflating the concepts of Star Trek canon and Okrandian Klingon canon, but I see the stuff that appear only in DeCandido&#39;s book as having somewhat lesser status than stuff that appeared in either Okrand&#39;s books or in actual Star Trek episodes/movies.</p>
<p dir="ltr">To be more specific, I don&#39;t see a need to have an entry for {Qa&#39;taq} &quot;K&#39;Ratak&quot;, a name which KRADeC made up, or any of the other names which aren&#39;t from Star Trek canon. I didn&#39;t add an entry for {qo&#39; Sor}, because (AFAIK) the &quot;Tree of the World&quot; where the Klingon gods lived is a thing KRADeC made up, and isn&#39;t from Star Trek canon. (Maybe it is, and I just don&#39;t know.) And anyway, {qo&#39;} and {Sor} are already canon entries and a reader can easily construct the meaning of {qo&#39; Sor} from that. I also didn&#39;t think it was right to add an entry for {wa&#39;jo&#39;&#39;a&#39;} &quot;Wa&#39;joh&#39;a&#39;, the first Klingon god&quot;, because it isn&#39;t Star Trek canon, and I don&#39;t want someone searching for the Klingon word for &quot;god&quot; to find that and start using it, or to believe that there was a first Klingon god (was there, in Star Trek canon?). For things like {qaDrav} and {yobta&#39; yupma&#39;}, which are at least made up of parts which are identifiable Okrandian canon, I&#39;ve added them with extended canon annotation. I&#39;ve also added {jInjoq}, {qorvIt}, and other nouns, annotated as extended canon.</p>
<p dir="ltr">I guess I don&#39;t see DeCandido&#39;s words as entirely proper because he made up a lot of nonsense in his book (like {chenmoH} for a martial arts &quot;form&quot;). Apparently, he relied on Bing translator rather than ask the KLI. That&#39;s fine, many Star Trek licensed authors make up their own &quot;Klingon&quot;, but I&#39;d consider their inventions extended canon. But maybe they become canon if Okrand retroactively blesses them. But I just know that if I added {qo&#39; Sor} and {wa&#39;jo&#39;&#39;a&#39;} to {boQwI&#39;}, someone will email me to tell me that it&#39;s nonsense, the Klingons don&#39;t have a first god and their gods didn&#39;t live in a tree. I wish I had a way to annotate &quot;Okrandian blessing of extended canon&quot; vs. &quot;Okrandian canon compatible with Star Trek canon&quot;.</p>
<p dir="ltr">Since Alan and Felix are apparently going to be maintaining the New Words list and extended corpus project for the KLI, I&#39;d be interested in also hearing whether they&#39;d consider words like {wa&#39;jo&#39;&#39;a&#39;} (and their attendant concepts like &quot;first Klingon god&quot;) to be canon or extended corpus. You guys need to figure out what&#39;s canon and what&#39;s not among DeCandido&#39;s inventions, and {boQwI&#39;} will follow whatever convention is used in the KLI web site. I don&#39;t have a problem with marking KRADeC&#39;s words which were retroactively blessed by Okrand to be canon, if that&#39;s how others think of them.</p>
<p dir="ltr">-- <br>
De&#39;vID</p>
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