tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Fri Aug 15 18:24:30 2014
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Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Fwd: Catholic priest seeks recording of prayer in Klingon
- From: David Holt <[email protected]>
- Subject: Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Fwd: Catholic priest seeks recording of prayer in Klingon
- Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2014 20:24:19 -0500
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<body class='hmmessage'><div dir='ltr'><div>ghItlh voragh:</div><div><span style="color: rgb(68, 68, 68); font-size: 15px; line-height: 21.299999237060547px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><br></span></div><div><span style="color: rgb(68, 68, 68); font-size: 15px; line-height: 21.299999237060547px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">> Was Isidor a medical doctor - i.e. a physician {Qel} - or a doctor of philosophy? If the</span><span style="color: rgb(68, 68, 68); font-size: 15px; line-height: 21.299999237060547px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"> latter, call him a {ghojmoHwI'} "teacher". As</span></div><div><span style="color: rgb(68, 68, 68); font-size: 15px; line-height: 21.299999237060547px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">> someone </span><span style="color: rgb(68, 68, 68); font-size: 15px; line-height: 21.299999237060547px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">pointed out earlier a bishop is etymologically an overseer, so either {vu'wI'} "manager" or {loHwI'} "magistrate" (lit.</span></div><div><span style="color: rgb(68, 68, 68); font-size: 15px; line-height: 21.299999237060547px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">> "administrator") work.</span></div><div><span style="color: rgb(68, 68, 68); font-size: 15px; line-height: 21.299999237060547px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><br></span></div><div><span style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><font color="#444444"><span style="font-size: 15px; line-height: 21.299999237060547px;">"Bishop" is a specialized term and all of the translations on Fr. Z's page use one of the various transliterations of it, so I am happy to do the same. As for "Doctor", I am much less familiar with Latin and didn't realize that it actually meant teacher. As far as I can tell, Isidore was not a medical physician, but is definitely described as an educator, so I have to decide whether to transliterate it or translate it. I don't think "Doctor" is as well known a term among followers of the Roman church and I think I prefer a translation in this instance.</span></font></span></div><div><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-size: 12pt;">ghItlh Qov:</span></div><div><span style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: 'Courier New'; font-size: 11.5pt; background-color: white;"><br></span></div><div><span style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: 'Courier New'; font-size: 11.5pt; background-color: white;">> {bISop} Qel je {San ‘ISIDor} ‘ej nuboQ ‘e’ wIqoy’. </span></div><div><div class="ecxWordSection1"><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:#333333;background:white;">> </span><span style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: 'Courier New'; font-size: 11.5pt; background-color: white;">The ‘ej in this sentence seems misplaced. Is the sentence supposed to be:</span></p><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:#333333;background:white;">> </span><span style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: 'Courier New'; font-size: 11.5pt; background-color: white;">nuboQ {bISop} Qel je {San ‘ISIDor} ‘e’ wIqoy’.</span></p><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:#333333;background:white;"><br></span></p><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><font color="#333333" face="Courier New"><span style="font-size: 15px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">DopDaq qul yIchenmoH QobDI' ghu' - I left out a verb. It was supposed to say: {bISop} Qel je ghaH {San 'ISIDor'e'} 'ej nuboQ 'e' wIqoy'.</span></font></p><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><font color="#333333" face="Courier New"><span style="font-size: 15px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><br></span></font></p><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><font color="#333333" face="Courier New"><span style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span style="font-size: 15px;">Though, the apposition might be better, so I'm actually going to go with Qov's.</span></span></font></p><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><font color="#333333" face="Courier New"><span style="font-size: 15px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><br></span></font></p><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: 'Courier New'; font-size: 11.5pt; background-color: white;">> yIghoSmoH --> tIghoSmoH</span></p><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: 'Courier New'; font-size: 11.5pt; background-color: white;"><br></span></p><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: 'Courier New'; font-size: 11.5pt; background-color: white;">HIja'</span></p><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:#333333;background:white;"><br></span></p><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:#333333;background:white;">> </span><span style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: 'Courier New'; font-size: 11.5pt; background-color: white;">wIghomboghvaD – the -vaD belongs on the noun, not the verb, and shouldn’t it be DI-?</span></p><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: 'Courier New'; font-size: 11.5pt; background-color: white;"><br></span></p><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: 'Courier New'; font-size: 11.5pt; background-color: white;">I wasn't sure about the {-vaD}, so I checked in TKD and it only said, "The whole construction (relative clause plus head noun), as a unit, is used in a sentence as a noun." But if you say the {-vaD} goes on the actual noun, I'm happy to go with that. I'll address {wI-} vs. {DI-} below.</span></p><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:#333333;background:white;"><br></span></p><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:#333333;background:white;">> </span><span style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: 'Courier New'; font-size: 11.5pt; background-color: white;">Review the rules for Hoch: you may find you need nuvpu’ to convey the meaning you want.</span></p><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:#333333;background:white;"><br></span></p><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:#333333;background:white;">I think I actually prefer {Hoch nuv}, but {Hoch nuvpu'} does more closely match the originals. I have no way to support this, but I felt like {Hoch nuv} should use {wI-} and {Hoch nuvpu'} should use {DI-}.</span></p><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:#333333;background:white;"><br></span></p><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:#333333;background:white;">ghItlh ghunchu'wI':</span></p><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(68, 68, 68); font-size: 15px; line-height: 21.299999237060547px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><br></span></p><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(68, 68, 68); font-size: 15px; line-height: 21.299999237060547px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">> <pIrurmeH juchenmoH> vImaS.</span></p><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(68, 68, 68); font-size: 15px; line-height: 21.299999237060547px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><br></span></p><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(68, 68, 68); font-size: 15px; line-height: 21.299999237060547px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">It feels a little like it could be an explanation of why he didn't give the job to one of his underlings, but I don't have any strong objections to it, so I'll change it.</span></p><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(68, 68, 68); font-size: 15px; line-height: 21.299999237060547px;"><br></span></p><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(68, 68, 68); font-size: 15px; line-height: 21.299999237060547px;"><span style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">> </span>I</span><span style="color: rgb(68, 68, 68); font-size: 15px; line-height: 21.299999237060547px;"> don't like how {SoHvo' boghbogh puqloD} seems to imply</span></p><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(68, 68, 68); font-size: 15px; line-height: 21.299999237060547px;">> a physical "</span><span style="color: rgb(68, 68, 68); font-size: 15px; line-height: 21.299999237060547px;">born from" which would naturally apply to the mother.</span></p><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(68, 68, 68); font-size: 15px; line-height: 21.299999237060547px;">> I think </span><span style="color: rgb(68, 68, 68); font-size: 15px; line-height: 21.299999237060547px;">{puqloD DaboghmoHbogh} works a lot better. Also, {neH}</span></p><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(68, 68, 68); font-size: 15px; line-height: 21.299999237060547px;">> here feels </span><span style="color: rgb(68, 68, 68); font-size: 15px; line-height: 21.299999237060547px;">inappropriate to me. Perhaps {mob} would be preferable.</span></p><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(68, 68, 68); font-size: 15px; line-height: 21.299999237060547px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><br></span></p><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(68, 68, 68); font-size: 15px; line-height: 21.299999237060547px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">I'm fine with your sentence suggestion, but {mob} seems to imply more of a "lonely" type of alone and {neH} a "singularly" type of alone. Am I alone in that or do any of the advance speakers disagree with ghunchu'wI' here?</span></p><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(68, 68, 68); font-size: 15px; line-height: 21.299999237060547px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><br></span></p><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(68, 68, 68); font-size: 15px; line-height: 21.299999237060547px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">> [I thought {QIStoS} was the accepted transliteration, but I'm not a </span><span style="color: rgb(68, 68, 68); font-size: 15px; line-height: 21.299999237060547px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">student of the original Greek text.]</span></p><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(68, 68, 68); font-size: 15px; line-height: 21.299999237060547px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><br></span></p><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><font color="#444444"><span style="font-size: 15px; line-height: 21.299999237060547px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">As I said previously (though you may have missed it), for this project I am ignoring the Greek texts (which definitely end the title in "s"), since this prayer was actually written in Liturgical Latin and English. In the Roman church, a number of different variations are used (I imagine they are declensions of the Latin), but as I looked through the various translations on Fr. Z's blog, the most common transliterations ended in "o".</span></font></p><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(68, 68, 68); font-size: 15px; line-height: 21.299999237060547px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><br></span></p><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(68, 68, 68); font-size: 15px; line-height: 21.299999237060547px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">> Instead of a {ghaHbogh} phrase, simple apposition ought to work: </span><span style="color: rgb(68, 68, 68); font-size: 15px; line-height: 21.299999237060547px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">{joH'a'ma'vo' QISto'vo'}. Skybox SP1 gives a perfect example of</span></p><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(68, 68, 68); font-size: 15px; line-height: 21.299999237060547px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">> this, </span><span style="color: rgb(68, 68, 68); font-size: 15px; line-height: 21.299999237060547px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">with the phrase {juHqo'vo' Qo'noSvo'}.</span></p><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(68, 68, 68); font-size: 15px; line-height: 21.299999237060547px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><br></span></p><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(68, 68, 68); font-size: 15px; line-height: 21.299999237060547px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">The {ghaHbogh} phrase bothered me, but I wasn't comfortable for how I should do apposition. I'll change it.</span></p><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(68, 68, 68); font-size: 15px; line-height: 21.299999237060547px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><br></span></p><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(68, 68, 68); font-size: 15px; line-height: 21.299999237060547px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">ghItlh voragh:</span></p><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(68, 68, 68); font-size: 15px; line-height: 21.299999237060547px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><br></span></p><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(68, 68, 68); font-size: 15px; line-height: 21.299999237060547px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">> FYI: from KGT (p. 152f.) we have the slang term {Ho'} "idol, someone worthy of emulation" which might work for saint.</span></p><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(68, 68, 68); font-size: 15px; line-height: 21.299999237060547px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><br></span></p><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(68, 68, 68); font-size: 15px; line-height: 21.299999237060547px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">It certainly seems like a likely definition to be used by Romans, though, being a follower of a reformed church myself, I would prefer {choqwI'}. However, the Romans tend to use variation of the Latin rather than translate it and that holds true for the majority of the translations on Fr. Z's page.</span></p><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(68, 68, 68); font-size: 15px; line-height: 21.299999237060547px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><br></span></p><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(68, 68, 68); font-size: 15px; line-height: 21.299999237060547px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">So here's where I am now:</span></p><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(68, 68, 68); font-size: 15px; line-height: 21.299999237060547px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><br></span></p><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><font color="#444444"><span style="font-size: 15px; line-height: 21.299999237060547px;">weQmoQnaQDaq bIrarpa' tayvam yIjatlh:</span></font></p><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><font color="#444444"><span style="font-size: 15px; line-height: 21.299999237060547px;"><br></span></font></p><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><font color="#444444"><span style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); font-size: 15px; line-height: 21.299999237060547px;"></span></font></p><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><font color="#444444"><span style="font-size: 15px; line-height: 21.299999237060547px;">'o Qun'a', SoH HoS law' Hoch HoS puS 'ej reH bItaHtaH. pIrurmeH juchenmoH. Hoch QaQ, Hoch teH, Hoch 'IH je DInej 'e' Dara'. puqloD DaboghmoHbogh neH ghaH {yeSu' QISto''e'} 'ej Qun porgh ghaH 'ej joH'a'ma' ghaH. ghaHDaq QaQwI', teHwI', 'IHwI' je DInejnIS je. nuboQ {bISop} ghojmoHwI' je {San 'ISIDor} 'e' wIqoy'. weQmoQnaQDaq malengtaHvIS ghopDu'majvaD mInDu'majvaD je nIbelmoHbogh Dochmey neH tIghoSmoH 'ej Hoch nuvpu' DIghomboghvaD ghoberghHa'moH 'ej ghotuvmoH. joH'a'ma'vo' QISto'vo' wItlhob. {'amen}.</span></font></p><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><font color="#444444"><span style="font-size: 15px; line-height: 21.299999237060547px;"><br></span></font></p><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><font color="#444444"><span style="font-size: 15px; line-height: 21.299999237060547px;">Jeremy</span></font></p></div></div><style><!--
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