tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Wed Apr 16 11:23:30 2014
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Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Multiple verb suffixes
On Apr 16, 2014, at 10:15 AM, SuStel <[email protected]> wrote:
>> From: [email protected]
>
>> For me, a verb with {-moH} on it has the subject being the one causing
>> the action of the verb. Nobody has convinced me otherwise,
>
> Has someone suggested otherwise?
>
> --
> David Trimboli
> http://www.trimboli.name/
>
I've read lengthy arguments in the past that adding {-moH} to a transitive verb gives the verb essentially two subjects, rather than two objects; that there is then a subject of causation of the verb and a subject of the action of the verb, and by that logic, the subject of the verb doesn't change when adding {-moH}. In other words, if I say {pabmey qaghojmoH}, the subject of {ghoj} is not "I", it's "you", since you are the one learning, and "I" am the one causing. And since a Type 2 suffix tells you something about the subject, if I say {pabmey qaghojqangmoH}, it doesn't mean "I am willing to teach you the rules." It means, "I cause you to be willing to learn the rules."
Never mind the normal meaning of the prefix {qa-}, indicating that "I" am the subject, so the rule about Type 2 suffixes applying to the subject dictates that it should mean "I am willing to teach you the rules."
That is the argument that replayed itself in my mind when I saw THIS argument about whether a Type 2 verb suffix applies itself to the subject of the causation or the subject of the action of the verb (and I'm sure there will be arguments about using the term "subject" instead of "agent", etc.).
So, what I was responding to was:
> It's worth noting that TKD 4.2.2. states
>
> "[Type 2 verb suffixes] express how much choice the subject has about the action described or how predisposed the subject is to doing it."
>
> A strict reading of this, assuming that we've got the right idea of what constitutes a "subject" in Klingon, would seem to indicate that a sentence such as {choHeghvIpmoH} could only ever mean "You're afraid to make me die.", and never "You make me fear death."
>
> However, there is an apparent contradiction of this later in TKD 4.2.10.:
> {HeghqangmoHlu'pu'} <it made him/her willing to die>
>
> Then, in paq'batlh (paq'raD, Canto 7, Stanzas 6-7):
>
> =====================================
> 'ach luj molor
> vangmo' molor HoSghajchoHqu' qeylIS
> 'ej SuvqangmoHbej
>
> Suvchu'meH Suvchu'meH Suvchu'meH
> ghaH SuvqangmoHchu'
> molor
>
> Instead, by doing so,
> Kahless grew mighty and strong,
> And it fueled his will to fight.
>
> To the death, to the death, to the death,
> It fueled his will to fight
> To the death.
> =====================================
>
> However, paq'batlh also contains an example that complies with TKD 4.2.2:
>
> paq'yav, Canto 6, Stanza 2
> =====================================
> ‘ej loDnI’lI’ yIjon
> molor DaQapbe’nISmoH
> yIghoS yIghoS yIghoS
>
> And get your brother,
> Molor must be stopped
> Go, go, go!
> =====================================
>
So, judging by canon, if you add {-nIS} or {-qang} to a transitive verb with {-moH} on it, then all you know is that SOMEBODY needs or is willing to do something or cause something, and you can't tell who because sometimes it's the person causing the action of the verb, while other times it's the person DOING the action of the verb and there is nothing in the grammar to disambiguate the vague nature of the construction. A is causing it and B is doing it, and one of the two of them is either willing or needing to cause or do it.
So, my take on this is that the problem can't be resolved, and I'll just always use {-nIS} or {-qang} when referring to the person or thing causing the action of the verb, and if I need that applied to the actual subject of the action of the verb, I'll find some other way to express it, because I find the canonical example of {HeghqangmoHlu'pu'} and it's ilk to be repulsively ugly. I won't say they are wrong because they are canon, so obviously, they are, by definition, not wrong, but that doesn't make them less ugly, and the language is versatile enough to find another road to that intended expression.
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