tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Tue Apr 15 09:08:35 2014

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Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Multiple verb suffixes

Bellerophon, modeler ([email protected]) 

<div dir="ltr">On Tue, Apr 15, 2014 at 12:20 AM, Robyn Stewart <span dir="ltr">&lt;<a href="mailto:[email protected]"; target="_blank">[email protected]</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<div><br><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 40px;border:none;padding:0px">
<div class="gmail_extra"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">Having met &#39;eD and recalling one of his weaknesses,</blockquote>
</div></blockquote><br>There are so many!</div><div><br></div><blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 40px;border:none;padding:0px"><div><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"><div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
I suspect that he didn&#39;t intentially misorder the suffices, that he wasn&#39;t actually proposing the suffixes be ordered incorrectly, just trying to recall a sentence like</blockquote></div></div></div></div><div><div class="gmail_extra">
<div class="gmail_quote"><div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"> </blockquote></div></div></div>
</div><div><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"><div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
DuHeghrupmoHlaH vs. DuHeghmoHlaH</blockquote></div></div></div></div><div><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"><div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
 </blockquote></div></div></div></div><div><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"><div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
To my reading -laH acts slightly differently in the two constructions, but I won&#39;t give my interpretation so I don&#39;t bias yours.</blockquote></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote">
<div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"></blockquote></div><div><br></div><div>I don&#39;t think any suffixes were misordered, and certainly no one is proposing doing so. AFAIK, the closest anyone competent in Klingon (which excludes me!) has come to this was MO making a portmanteau of -lu&#39; and -laH in KGT as an example of non-standard usage.<br>
</div><div><br></div><div>Actually Qov, I&#39;d like to hear your interpretation of the above. I&#39;d read them both with suffixes acting in their grammatical order: &quot;he can prepare you to die&quot; vs. &quot;he can cause you to die,&quot; with -laH acting the same in both. (BTW, I&#39;m not sure {HeghmoH} is any different from {HoH}. I wonder if MO conceived the latter as a contraction of the former). One could conceivably interpret the former as, &quot;He makes you able to be prepared to die,&quot; but that&#39;s pretty awful. Interpreting the latter as, &quot;He causes you to be able to die&quot; makes no sense unless you were previously immortal.</div>
<div><br></div><div>ghunchu&#39;wI&#39; cited an excellent example below of suffixes that make more sense if they don&#39;t act in their grammatical order.</div></div></div></div><br><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 40px;border:none;padding:0px">
<div><div class="gmail_extra"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
From: ghunchu&#39;wI&#39; [mailto:<a href="mailto:[email protected]";>[email protected]</a>]<br> <br>
Power Klingon&#39;s suggested formula for declining an offered liaison:<br>
DaH jIbwIj vISay&#39;nISmoH<br>
&quot;I must wash my hair now.&quot;</blockquote></div></div></blockquote><div><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_extra"><br></div>Rigidly applying the meaning of the suffixes in order yields &quot;I cause my hair to need to be clean now,&quot; which makes very little sense.</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br></div><div class="gmail_extra">The rules for verb suffixes stated in TKD must give rise to some additional grammar governing suffixes. They commonly seem to apply in order, though this often doesn&#39;t work with Type 2 suffixes, especially combinations like -nISmoH and -qangmoH. &quot;Need to cause&quot; and &quot;willing to cause&quot; express clear meanings, but &quot;cause to need&quot; and &quot;cause to be willing&quot; make little sense as direct action. What grammatical rules can be stated about the action of suffixes, in combination with different types of verbs and each other? For that matter, which combinations are not allowable? Can {-moH} ever be applied to a transitive verb? It may be impractical to state a system rules to govern every possible utterance, especially if context plays a role, but the other extreme of ad hoc interpretation is imprecise.</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br></div><div class="gmail_extra">~&#39;eD<br>-- <br>My modeling blog:          <a href="http://bellerophon-modeler.blogspot.com/"; target="_blank">http://bellerophon-modeler.blogspot.com/</a><br>
My other modeling blog:  <a href="http://bellerophon.blog.com/"; target="_blank">http://bellerophon.blog.com/</a><br>
</div></div></div>

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