tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Sun Apr 06 11:15:56 2014

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Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Canon and feelings for translating be-verbs with"there"

Robyn Stewart ([email protected]) [KLI Member] [Hol po'wI']



> law' 'Iw. - Blood is abundant. = There's a lot of blood.
> puS Soj. - Food is sparse. = There's not much food.

> does anyone feel that 'Iw law' tu'lu' is necessary in order to use 
> that translation. Does anyone prefer 'Iw law' tu'lu'
> for that thought and think puS Soj is stilted?

Are we looking for a /translation/, or a secret decoder ring phrase
substitution?

Qov> (My stupid mail program doesn't handle attributed text properly).
Qov> We're looking for a translation that, when presented in a dialogue for
beginners, will not make any of the experts complain that it is poor form,
or teaching the beginners incorrectly.

> To me, [law' 'Iw] is about the blood being abundant.
> ['Iw law' tu'lu'] is about the fact that "one discovers" much blood.

Qov> We know that tu'lu' is an idiom indicating the presence of something,
akin to Spanish hay, French il y a, and Russian есть. We have much canon to
support "there is" being a natural translation.

What is the focus in the story being told?

Qov> The parents are complaining about the mess the kids are making by
fighting with knives in the house, but the real focus is use of the stative
verb law'. I want to ensure that when I write <law' 'Iw> that experienced
speakers will see a well-formed Klingon sentence and feel that "there is a
lot of blood" is an acceptable translation.

> It's the same idea:  "verb X" which should strictly be translated as 
> "X verbs" becomes "There is X verbing."

This could fall into how we often joke about the wordiness of English.

Qov> Yes. But I want to present natural-sounding translations.
 
> I don't expect anyone is going to object to such translations, but I 
> have been twitching for fifteen years every time I see ghopHomDu' 
> translated as "small hands" in the postal course, so I want to make 
> sure this doesn't irk anyone.

I cringe every time someone uses -'a' and -Hom to denote simply "big" and
"small".
Example, a crown is not necessarily big.

Qov> That was my point. The existing postal course, created about 15 years
ago, not by me, used the suffixes this way. I aim to avoid producing
anything that makes others cringe or twitch.

I can understand how using "there's..." when teaching beginners could cause
some confusion.  When I study a new language, I want to see a choppy
word-for-word substitution so I can learn what each part of the sentence
actually means.  How do you learn vocabulary from actual usage if everyone
keeps throwing in extra words.
But... I have also seen many ignorant/arrogant people that have never
studied a language make fun of Klingon because the translations were given
as choppy word-for-word instead of a more colloquial form.

Qov> The intended audience is the serious student of Klingon, so I am not
overly worried about choppiness. I will be sure to make that point. Thank
you.


-- DloraH


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