tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Mon Nov 14 12:12:54 2011
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Re: [Tlhingan-hol] plural of <De' jengva'>
De'vID jonpIn:
>> Is it <De' jengva'mey> or <De' ngop>?
>>
>> We discussed this question at the qepHom, but I'd like
>> to get people's opinions here before I summarise that
>> discussion so as not to prejudice people one way or the other.
'anan naHQun:
> That's a great question.
> I could see arguments for each side having valid points.
Okrand on {jengva'}:
KGT 33-34: Another grammatical feature of Klingon about which children frequently become confused involves nouns that are inherently plural, such as {cha} (torpedoes) and {ngop} (plates [for eating]), as opposed to their singular counterparts {peng} (torpedo) and {jengva'} (plate). Instead of using the special plural forms, children tend forms plurals of these words by simply adding the plural suffix {-mey} to the singular forms ({pengmey}, {jengva'mey}), as would be done with most other nouns ... Adults also add {–mey} to these nouns, but they do so to indicate that the items are scattered about ({jengva'mey}, "plates scattered all over the place"). For children who say {jengva'mey}, it apparently means simply "plates"; that is, it is nothing more than the plural form of {jengva'}.
Children seem to be aware of the existence of the inherently plural forms, however, for they use them as well, though usually with the suffix {-mey} superfluously appended: {chamey} (torpedoeses), {ngopmey} (plateses). Inherently plural nouns are considered singular as far as how they fit into the overall grammatical structure. Thus, the singular pronoun {'oH} (it) is used for both {jengva'} (plate) and {ngop} (plates) in sentences such as {nuqDaq 'oH jengva''e'?} ("Where is the plate?") and {nuqDaq 'oH ngop'e'?} ("Where are the plates?"). Children, however, tend to use the plural pronoun {bIH} (they) with {ngop} (as well as with {jengva'mey} and the redundantly suffixed {ngopmey}): {nuqDaq bIH ngop'e'?} ("Where are the plates?").
{De' jengva'mey} may just grate on Klingon ears. The "scattered about" sense of {jengva'mey} doesn't always apply: e.g. a box or shelf of neatly organized CDs are not "scattered all over the place". OTOH, {De' jengva'} may be a specialized technical sense and so the expected plural form may not apply. OTOH (!) the usual, expected plural suffix is sometimes retained even when the word is being used metaphorically:
KGT 97: The smaller {nevDagh} [flat-bottomed pot] is characterized by its V-shaped handles, termed {DeSqIvDu'} ("elbows"; note the {-Du'}, the plural suffix for body parts is used here even though the handles are not literally body parts).
However, contrast this with his comment on {DIr} on st.klingon (3/23/1998):
"Since number is an optional category in Klingon (the plural suffix may be left off even if the word refers to more than one thing), {Dir} may refer to a skin or skins or skin as a material or substance. Likewise for {veDDIr} "pelt, pelts". So the problem of which plural suffix to use comes up only when one feels the need to be very specific. If I understand Maltz correctly, it works like this: The general plural suffix {-mey} is not used with body parts (except by poets, of course). Thus {DIrmey} "skins" and {veDDIrmey} "pelts" are not (or, perhaps better, are no longer) body parts, but rather are materials from which things (clothing or blankets, for example) may be made. They've lost their association with the creatures that originally had them. (This is kind of like the distinction in English between beef, which is eaten, and cattle, which isn't.) If there still is that association, that is, if the creatures still have their skin, or if it's a creature that has multiple skins (maybe layers, maybe different kinds of skin on different parts of the body), or if the skin just came off either by natural causes (as with Alan Anderson's snakes) or by the creatures being, well, skinned, then the body-part plural suffix {-Du'} may be used: {DIrDu'}. But {Dir} alone, without a suffix, is heard most often.
--
Voragh
Ca'Non Master of the Klingons
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