tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Thu Oct 28 05:36:34 2010

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Re: A request for assistance

lojmIt tI'wI' nuv ([email protected]) 

I wonder whether a Klingon would consider a rose's thorn to be closer associated with DuQwI' or with naHjej. We've translated the latter to "thistle", but we can't know that it is not a more generic word for any plant that has parts that would be considered "sharp".

Also, consider that in English, we use the term "flower" both to refer to the assembly of petals and the immediate structure that holds them in place, and also for the whole plant, including roots, and anything in between. Consider cut flowers, for instance, vs. potted flowers, or flowers woven into your hair. They are all flowers, so long as they include the petals.

We don't talk about trees like that, or bushes, or even most food plants or animals or people. Flowers alone have this odd word trick, and perhaps we should not assume that this carries across the language barrier between English and Klingon.

Also when you speak of roses without thorns, you have to include the petals and stems for the reference to make any sense, because the petals and the rosebud or base of the petals never have thorns. It's the stems that have thorns.

So, a rose clipped at the base of the petals is naturally without thorns. The absence of thorns is only noteworthy if you are talking about rose stems or whole plants.

It's interesting that the rose seems designed to attract bees (love the smell and color, couldn't care less about the thorns), but repel larger creatures that like to eat colorful, sweet-smelling things. Humans like to control the features of domesticated species, but the widespread creation of a thornless rose has so far escaped human capability. In that regard, the rose is rebellious.

pItlh.
lojmIt tI'wI' nuv



On Oct 28, 2010, at 6:54 AM, R Fenwick wrote:

> Hol jatlhlaHbe'ba'bogh mu'tlhegh ghItlhmoH qatlh neH? jISovbe'. jIyajlaHbe'.
> Huj. porghwIj'e' 'oHbe'ba', vaj qay'be'chu', 'ach reH mumer ghu'meyvam. Hol
> QIn tetlhmey law' vIlaDtaH 'ej pIj nargh tlhobbogh nuvvam. porghchajDaq
> ghItlhmey ru'Ha'qu' ghItlh neH 'ej Holmey yajbe'qu'bogh lo' neH. taQlaw'...
> 
> Anyway, I don't see that this request is that tough. In "Sarek", the Klingon
> Karg, in romancing the Klingon woman Valdyr, says: 
> 
> "When you are my wife, your beauty will blossom like *chal* flowers in
> spring." (p. 58)
> 
> Admittedly, {chal} here may simply to be interpreted as "sky" (as English
> "buttercup", say), but it's as close as we've got, and clearly the Klingon
> flower is also associated with beauty. With that the case, I'd translate
> "*chal* flower" as {chal tI}. And for "thorn", I'm surprised that no-one's
> mentioned {DuQwI'} "spike", which is the best and to my mind only genuine
> candidate. So for "Without Thorn The Rose" I would say {DuQwI' Hutlhbogh
> chal tI} "the *chal* plant that lacks thorn(s)", with the caveat that {chal
> tI} has only very shaky canon support.
> 
> Less literally, {chal tI pup} "perfect *chal* plant" would also work fine.
> 
> Comments? FWIW, I agree that "smooth" is absolutely inappropriate in this
> context, though I'm not a fan of {roweS} as a transliteration of "rose".
> 
> QeS 'utlh
> 
> 
> On Oct 27, 2010, at 3:14 PM, Krenath wrote:
> 
>> I received this email directly just now.  While I hunt down whatever
>> assistance I can give, I thought I'd forward it on to the list and see if
>> I can get the ball rolling.
>> 
>> Begin forwarded message:
>> 
>>> From: Kate Oscarson <[email protected]>
>>> Date: October 27, 2010 2:57:11 PM EDT
>>> To: [email protected]
>>> Subject: A request for assistance
>>> 
>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Hello,
>>> 
>>> I am writing to you today in hopes of assistance in a Klingon translation
>>> project.  I retrieved your email address off of the Klingon Language
>>> Institute Discussion Board, and am hopeful that you might be able to help
>>> me, or at least point me in the right direction.  I have already had emails
>>> bounce back as "undeliverable" for all administrator addresses at the KLI
>>> website.  I am hoping to translate "Without Thorn the Rose" (Milton,
>>> Paradise Lost).  I have done the research and checked many resources,
>>> however I am unable to find the words "rose" and "thorn" defined either at
>>> the KLI or at other Klingon translation websites.  Would you be able to assist?
>>> 
>>> To add a personal note, in the hopes that it may help my cause, I am in the
>>> process of having a large rose-vine tattooed across my back as a way of paying
>>> respect to my family's honor (I am the 13th rose in a family of strong, proud,
>>> honorable women.)  I would like to add this phrase to my tattoo.  I think that
>>> the Klingon Gods would have approved, had they not all been slain by their
>>> creations.
>>> 
>>> Thank you for your time,
>>> 
>>> Katherine Rose Oscarson 		 	   		  
>

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