tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Wed Feb 11 18:27:36 2004

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Re: nom ghel, nom jang

David Trimboli ([email protected]) [KLI Member] [Hol po'wI']

From: "Lieven L. Litaer (Quvar)" <[email protected]>

> Am 08.02.2004 21:26:12, schrieb "David Trimboli" <[email protected]>:
>
> >Am I the only one who cringes whenever people stick {mu'} in apposition
with
> >the word in question?
>
> I always do it like this, even though I'm not sure if it's correct.

Mind you, I'm not saying it's wrong.  I only see people do it with {mu'},
and not a dozen other things they use in apposition in English, making me
think that it's their native language that is influencing this usage.

> My use is based on the following ideas:
>
> 1.
> {DIp 'oHbe' Duj'e'}. "A ship is not a noun"
> But the word for "ship" can be a noun, isn't it?
> {DIp 'oHbej mu''e'. DIp 'oH Duj mu''e'}
> "The word is a noun. The word ship is a noun. "

Consider these two English sentences:

The ship is a noun.
"Ship" is a noun.

(In English, it's also a verb, but that's not relevant here.)

In spoken English, the only difference between these two sentences is the
definite article on "ship."  The first sentence is false (or nonsensical),
the second is true.

Now consider: Klingon doesn't have articles.  {Duj} might be "the ship," "a
ship," or "ship" in translation, but in Klingon it's just {Duj}.

DIp 'oH Duj'e'

Now, you can use the same punctuation trick you use in written English to
disambiguate the Klingon:

DIp 'oH <Duj>'e',

but what you say hasn't changed.  The lack of articles in Klingon makes this
ambiguity exist where it can't in English.

> 2.
> I think the word {mu'} should follow the word in question, just like a
title or rank does
> {qImla' HoD} "captain Kimla"
> {Duj mu'} "word ship"

I doubt this.  Ranks and titles go after a name, but other things, like ship
function, do not.  You can't say {qImla' DeghwI'} as a name for "Helmsman
Kimla."  I don't see any reason why we should extend the rules for titles to
words and {mu'}.

> 3.
> If that is soup,

Heh.  I needed a double-take there.

> then one can still see it as a noun-noun construction:
>
> like {qImla' pong} "kimla's name",
> {Duj mu'} "the word of ship" or more fluent "the word for <ship>"
> [the word that stands for the idea of "ship"]

Klingon noun-noun constructions are genitive, not appositive.  I don't think
this works, either.

> 4.
> I also think we should not construct things like {Duj Delbogh qech
'oSqu'bogh mu''e'} or the like.

veQvetlh Dajatlhqa'chugh qaHoH!  :)

I think we can just say the word.  Sometimes a more explicit construction
might help.

DIp 'oH <Duj>'e'.
DIp 'oH mu'vam'e': <Duj>.

SuStel
Stardate 4114.9

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