tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Thu Jun 13 17:05:43 2002
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Re: ja*
Andrew wrote:
>Ah yes. You have a good point there. In the known canonical examples the
>object of ja' (if it has one) is always an interlocutor. The direct object of
>jatlh is always either a language or an utterance. Notable, however, is that
>ja' also has the gloss "report", which is precisely what one does to a story
>and not to a interlocutor. Anyway, that was my thot process on the matter,
>but you may be right about ja', considering known canon.
Okrand provided a fairly detailed discussion of {jatlh} on the old MSN
expert_forum BBS when he revealed the "prefix trick" in June 1997:
"The object of {jatlh} 'speak' is that which is spoken. Thus, it's OK to
say 'speak a language', for example {tlhIngan Hol Dajatlh} 'you speak
Klingon'. But it's also OK to say 'speak an address, speak a lecture', for
example {SoQ Dajatlh} 'you speak an address' or, more colloquially, 'you
deliver an address' or 'you make a speech'. To say simply {jatlh} 'he/she
speaks' implies 'he/she speaks it', where 'it' is a language or a lecture
or whatever.
"The indirect object of {jatlh}, when expressed, is the hearer/listener.
Thus
qama'pu'vaD tlhIngan Hol Dajatlh you speak Klingon to the prisoners,
qama'pu'vaD SoQ Dajatlh} you make a speech to the prisoners.
"When the indirect object (in this case, the hearer) is first or second
person, the pronominal prefix which normally indicates first or second
person object may be used. There are other examples of this sort of thing
with other verbs. For example, someone undergoing the Rite of Ascension
says {tIqwIj Sa'angnIS} 'I must show you [plural] my heart'. The pronominal
prefix in this phrase is {Sa-}, which means 'I [do something to] all of
you' in such sentences as {Salegh} 'I see you [plural]' but when there's
already an object (in this case, {tIqwIj} 'my heart'), the 'object' of the
prefix is interpreted as the indirect object, so {Sa-} means 'I [do
something to] it for you' or the like...
"Since the object of {jatlh} is that which is spoken, and since 'you' or
'I' or 'we' cannot be spoken (and therefore cannot be the object of the
verb), if the verb is used with a pronominal prefix indicating a first- or
second-person object, that first or second person is the indirect object.
Which is a not very elegant way of saying that {qajatlh} means 'I speak to
you' or, more literally, perhaps 'I speak it to you', where 'it' is a
language or a speech or whatever:
qajatlh I speak to you
Sajatlh I speak to you [plural]
chojatlh you speak to me
tlhIngan Hol qajatlh I speak Klingon to you.
"There's another wrinkle to this. The verb {jatlh} can also be used when
giving direct quotations:
tlhIngan jIH jatlh he/she says, 'I am a Klingon'
jatlh tlhIngan jIH he/she says, 'I am a Klingon'.
(With verbs of saying, such as {jatlh}, the phrase that is being said or
cited may come before or after the verb.) If the speaker is first or second
person, the pronominal prefix indicating 'no object' is used:
tlhIngan jIH jIjatlh I say, 'I am a Klingon'
tlhIngan jIH bIjatlh you say, 'I am a Klingon'.
"There are instances where the pronominal prefix marks a big distinction
in meaning:
tlhIngan Hol Dajatlh you speak Klingon
tlhIngan Hol bIjatlh you say, 'Klingon language',
you say the phrase 'Klingon language'."
Unfortunately, Okrand has never provided such an excursus on {ja'}. The
most we have comes from TKD (p.67):
Similarly, with verbs of saying ("say, tell, ask", etc.), {'e'} and
{net} are
not used. The two phrases simply follow one another, in either order:
qaja'pu' HIqaghQo' [or] HIqaghQo' qaja'pu'
I told you not to interrupt me.
This is literally, "I told you, 'Don't interrupt me!'" or "'Don't
interrupt me!'
I told you." ... An aspect marker (here, {-pu'} perfective) may always be
attached to the verb of saying, regardless of whether it is the first or
second
verb.
which doesn't tell us whether something other than the interlocutor can be
the object of {ja'}. Our most complex example comes from SkyBox card S8:
nuja' tlhIngan wIch ja'wI'pu' yIntaHvIS qeylIS'e' lIjlaHbe'bogh vay'
batlh 'etlhvam chenmoHlu'pu'.
According to Klingon legend, this sword of honor descends from the
time of Kahless the Unforgettable.
(lit. "Klingon myth tellers tell us [that] this sword of honor was
created while Kahless the Unforgettable [still] lived.")
which follows the rule for reported speech, but still doesn't answer the
question.
All of which means that we just don't know if we can say, using a variation
of the prefix trick:
?lut Saja' vIneH
I want to tell you all a story.
--
Voragh
Ca'Non Master of the Klingons