tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Tue Oct 16 10:32:24 2001
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Re: tu'lu'pu'be'bogh Hatlh
From: "Steven Boozer" <[email protected]>
> charghwI':
> > wo' tu'lu'pu'be'bogh.
>
> One small suggestion: {-pu'} can probably be safely omitted here:
>
> wo' tu'lu'be'bogh
>
> Although translating The Undiscovered Country as a perfective - "the
empire
> which has not been discovered" - is certainly literally correct, I think
it
> makes the phrase a bit long and clumsy. The perfective sense in such
{-bogh}
> phrases is sometimes provided by context, particularly when used with
{-lu'}.
In this case, I think the /-pu'/ is very important. "The undiscovered
country" does not refer to a place that one "does not discover," it refers
to a place that one "has not yet discovered." Implied in its meaning is the
fact that each one of us, eventually, will enter that country and see for
ourselves what is there. It is, of course, a metaphor for death (which is
why everyone was so shocked when General Chang used it as a toast--until he
diffused the situation by saying he meant the future).
> reH boch qutluch lo'lu'bogh
> The used kut'luch is always shiny. TKW
>
> "The kut'luch which is used"; a perfective translation is also possible:
> {qutluch lo'lu'pu'bogh} "the kut'luch which has been used".
No, the implication here is that the kut'luch is still being used. If it
has been used and is no longer, it will stop being shiny. The perfective
doesn't really work here. You might be able to talk about /boch qutluch qen
lo'lu'pu'bogh/ "the kut'luch which has been recently used is shiny," but
then it's not necessarily "always shiny."
> On the other hand we have:
>
> boqrat chej Qevlu'pu'bogh
> stewed bokrat liver
> (lit. "bokrat liver that has been stewed") KGT
If it's not already stewed, it's not already stewed. "Bokrat liver which
one stews" is a different thing than "bokrat liver which has been stewed."
> So, you have a choice. It's not always necessary to translate every
possible
> little nuance, and in poetry especially you may want to keep or omit the
> syllable {-pu'} for metrical reasons.
You should use those suffixes which most accurately (one of the ideals of
behavior) reflects your meaning, whether that meaning is well-expressed in
the English. Don't just translate from English to Klingon, express the
concept precisely in Klingon.
In the case of "the undiscovered country," the perfective would seem to be
an important element, and should be retained.
> DloraH
> : Hatlh is "country, countryside (n)". Many people don't see that second
> : word. [ . . . ]
> :
> : But even tho Sep is country, in the political sense, would it fit the
poetic
> : meaning of "undiscovered country"? I'm not that much into Shakespear.
>
> Another option is {qo'} "world, realm" which is somewhat better than
{Sep}.
> Though it's often used as a synonym of {yuQ} "planet", the second gloss
"realm"
> indicates that {qo'} is somewhat broader.
>
> Of the three, however, I much prefer charghI's suggestion of {wo'}.
In Shakespear, an "undiscovered country" wouldn't equate with a nation or
just any old "countryside," it would be a previously unknown geographical
area. Imagine being the first traveler to climb a mountain and see what's
beyond it. What you see is an undiscovered country.
/Sep/ would seem to be the best translation of this, as its common meaning
is "region," and only in the past did it more or less equate with a
political boundary (as explained in KGT). /wo'/ is restricted to a
political entity, and /qo'/, in its full sense, is far too literal for this
metaphor.
> Viewing
> Sto'Vo'Kor (or perhaps Gre'thor) as the Empire of the Dead sounds somewhat
more
> Klingon. Whichever you choose, don't fall into the trap of over-literal
> translation, particularly WRT Shakespeare and other poetry.
On the other hand, if you talk about these things, you've entirely lost the
metaphor. Being over-literal with the CONCEPT is probably even worse.
> BTW: This comes from Hamlet's soliloquy where he's contemplating killing
> himself and travelling to the afterlife, that "undiscovered country",
right?
Correct.
SuStel
Stardate 1792.3