tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Wed May 02 06:43:48 2001
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Re: vIlIH'egh bochaw'chugh
- From: Will Martin <[email protected]>
- Subject: Re: vIlIH'egh bochaw'chugh
- Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 09:42:44 -0400
> In a message dated 4/30/2001 9:15:10 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
> [email protected] writes:
>
>
>> {ghel} is to {tlhob} as {jatlh} is to {ja'}. The direct object of
>> {tlhob} is typically a person, while the direct object of {ghel} is
>> typically a question, so if you use the prefix shortcut, {qaghelpu'}
>> becomes {SoHvaD
>>
>
> I, too, can use help here. I have been using {ghel}, {jang}, {jatlh} and
> {jach} as intransitive-only verbs. Thus, my sentences have ended up as:
> jIghel, jIjatlh <<qaS nuq?>> bIjang, bIjatlh <<qaS pagh.>>
>
> Intransitive obviously means "no object," precluding the idea of "direct
> object."
>
> I would appreciate a full discussion of this topic.
>
> peHruS
Your use of these verbs intransitively is most commonly correct because
most commonly, especially {ja'} and {jatlh} are used in direct quotations,
and the quotation is NOT the direct object of these verbs. The quotation
and the verb of speech are grammatically independent of each other.
Meanwhile, all four of these verbs CAN have direct objects. We know from
Okrand that {jatlh} can have as its direct object the nouns:
Hol
SoQ
qID
Other nouns describing some unit of speech would work as the direct object
of {jatlh}, but generally, this is true when you are NOT using {jatlh} as
the verb of speech in a direct quotation. When I say {tlhIngan Hol
vIjatlh}, I am not using direct quotation. I'm saying, "I speak the Klingon
language." I'm not saying, "I said, 'Klingon language'." If I wanted to say
the latter, I'd say either {jIjatlh tlhIngan Hol,} or {tlhIngan Hol
jIjatlh.}
Is that point clear? You use the "no direct object" prefix when you are
using {jatlh} to be the verb of speech in a direct quotation. You can use a
prefix that involves a direct object if that direct object is one of the
above mentioned nouns or some functional equivalent such that the noun
represents the pile of words that you say, rather than literally quotes
them.
Similarly, {ja'} can be used in direct quotation, typically intransitively
because, once again, the direct quotation is not the direct object of
{ja'}. In direct quotation, the direct quotation and the verb of speech are
grammatically independent of one another and either can preceed the other.
Realize that {ja'} is slightly different because the direct object of {ja'}
is the person being addressed. This doesn't conflict with the role of being
a verb of speech, so I could be grammatically correct and say:
qaja' HItlha'.
or
HItlha' qaja'.
"I told you, 'Follow me!'"
The verb of speech and the direct quotation are grammatically independent
AND {ja'} has a second person singular direct object. You are the person I
am telling.
Just to make things more interesting, realize that the prefix shortcut can
allow you to, when the person being addressed is the first or second
person, use the prefix shortcut on {jatlh}, so I could also say:
qajatlh HItlha'.
or
HItlha' qajatlh.
Note that in this case, the second person singular is not really the direct
object. It is the indirect object. These are the functional equivalent of
the more grammatically explicit:
SoHvaD jIjatlh HItlha'.
Meanwhile, I can say:
Qanqor vIja' HItlha'.
But I cannot be correct if I were to say:
*Qanqor vIjatlh HItlha'.*
This is grammatically incorrect because no person is the direct object of
{jatlh}, and the prefix trick doesn't work if the direct object is 3rd
person.
As for {ghel} and {tlhob}, Okrand's most recent discussion of this in the
HolQeD interview and a small bit of discussion off the record makes it
clear that while he did use {tlhob} as a verb of speech in his published
Klingon jokes on one of the audio tapes, he now regrets that somewhat. He
really prefers that these two verbs NOT be used as verbs of speech. For the
most part, "as far as Maltz has told us up to this point", the only two
verbs to use for direct quotation are {ja'} and {jatlh}.
The jokes also predate the existance of the verb {ghel} and Okrand was
pretty clear that he would have preferred to have used {ghel} in the jokes,
since he expressed that he wants {ghel} to be the question equivalent of
{jatlh}. The direct object of {ghel} would be the noun for the unit of
speech being asked (which I find a little awkward, since we don't have a
noun for "question"). Because there is no noun for "question", I find it
natural to use {ghel} intransitively most of the time with the direct
object simply implied that if you are {ghel}ing, there must be a question
involved, similar to the way that {jISop} implies food, though it doesn't
mention it. The verb gives the information about the kind of speech being
offered. Typical use would be:
novvaD jIghel. jIjatlh 'Iv SoH?
Similarly, {tlhob} is the question equivalent of {ja'}. The direct object
of {tlhob} is the person being asked the question.
nov vItlhob. vIja' 'Iv SoH?
For all of these, we might punctuate them, typically using << and >> to
replace quotation marks, but this is the romanized Klingon writing system,
anyway, just phonetically notating spoken Klingon, so punctuation is
somewhat optional and variable. For example, the last example might be
written a little more clearly as:
nov vItlhob. vIja' <<'Iv SoH?>>
I hope this is clearly presented.
charghwI' 'utlh