tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Mon Jun 15 11:35:25 1998
[Date Prev][Date Next][Thread Prev][Thread Next]
Re: List of Klingon fauna
- From: "William H. Martin" <[email protected]>
- Subject: Re: List of Klingon fauna
- Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 14:35:20 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
- In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
- Priority: NORMAL
On Mon, 15 Jun 1998 11:10:54 -0700 (PDT) Steven Boozer
<[email protected]> wrote:
> : > pa' luDabqu'be'.
> :
> : > -- ghunchu'wI'
> :
> : This one is sneaky in its weirdness. If you meant, "They do not
> : very much dwell in a room," then this is correct. Meanwhile, if
> : {pa'} is supposed to be "thereabouts", then it is an adverb
> : (chuvmey} and not a noun, so it can't be the direct object of
> : {Dab}. I'd either repeat {chal}, or omit it altogether. Using
> : {pa'} as some sort of locative pronoun replacing {chal} may make
> : sense in English, but it doesn't work in Klingon by any grammar
> : we've been shown yet.
> :
> : charghwI'
>
> I agree that {pa' Dabqu'be'} is better, but look at these examples:
>
> juHqo'Daq vaS'a' tu'lu'. ngoch luchermeH 'ej wo' San luwuqmeH pa' ghom
> tlhIngan yejquv DevwI'pu'.
> On the Homeworld, there is a great hall where the leaders of the Klingon High
> Council meet to determine policy and decide upon the fate of the Empire.
> (S25)
>
> {pa'} seems to be acting as a pronoun for {vaS'a'}.
No. It is simply an adverbial showing the location. The {-meH}
clause is apparently modifying the verb {ghom}. They are meeting
in order to set up the government. {pa'} is definitely not the
direct object of {ghom}. It might be replacing {vaS'a'Daq}, but
not {vaS'a'}. It's grammatical function is purely locative,
which is essentially adverbial, which is why {pa'} is classified
as such. Time stamps and locatives really are adverbials. That's
why they have to go at the beginning of a Klingon sentence,
right there with the OTHER adverbials. Most Type 5 modified
nouns are adverbial.
> tlhIngan wo' yuQmey chovlu'chugh Qo'noS potlh law' Hoch potlh puS. roD 'oHvaD
> juHqo' ponglu' neH. pa' 'oHtaH vaS'a''e'
> The principal planet of the Klingon Empire, Qo'noS is usually referred to as
> simply "The Homeworld." This is where the Klingon Great Hall is located
> (S27)
>
> Here, {pa'} seems to be acting as a pronoun for either {Qo'noS} or {juHqo'}.
Again, it stands for {Qo'noSDaq} or {juHqo'Daq}, which are
grammatically functioning as adverbials (locatives), not nouns.
If you plug the noun back in, you would not want:
Qo'noS 'oHtaH vaS'a''e'.
You would instead want:
Qo'noSDaq 'oHtaH vaS'a''e'.
> batlh maHeghbej 'ej yo' qIjDaq vavpu'ma' DImuv. pa' reH maSuvtaHqu'
> Then we die with honor and join our fathers in the Black Fleet where
> we battle forever. (Anthem)
>
> And here {pa'} seems to be acting as a pronoun for {yo' qIjDaq}.
Again, don't think of a noun with {-Daq} as a noun. It acts as
an adverbial, hence {pa'} acts as an adverbial. It tells you
where the action takes place.
> When {pa'} is acting pronominally, it can be translated "where" in English.
> ({nuqDaq} is reserved for questions.)
I think you are misled because of Okrand's loose translation
there. He gets the word "where" as part of his taking the
separate sentence {pa' reH maSuvtaHqu'} and translating it as a
relative clause in English. This avoids the awkwardness of
trying to build a relative clause in Klingon where the head noun
is a locative for the relative clause. Remember that Okrand said
he could not see the head noun as anything but subject or object
of the relative clause. That is not the case here, so he made it
a separate sentence with {pa'} symantically linking the two
grammatically independent sentences.
{pa'} is holding the place of {yo' qIjDaq} in the same way that
a pronoun holds the place of a noun, but {yo' qIjDaq} is not
grammatically functioning as a noun. It is grammatically
functioning as an adverbial, like all locatives.
> You're right that {pa'} isn't the
> object of a verb in these examples, but it is clearly being used as a
> pronoun. I couldn't find any examples of {naDev} used in this fashion, though.
Yes. Okrand does make things a bit confusing with {pa'} and
{naDev} classified differently, as are {DaH} and {DaHjaj}, but
the thing to understand here is that locatives do not function
as nouns. They function as adverbials. They tell you about the
action of the verb, just like any adverbial. It can happen
quickly or slowly, here or there, now or later, but all of these
are adverbial descriptors.
> Voragh
charghwI'