tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Thu Jul 02 09:40:03 1998

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Re: SuvwI'bom

first, I have to apologize for using English as my efforts to use 
Klingon obviously failed :-(

ghunchu'wI' vItlhob:
> ><<ponglIj nuq?>> DamaS qar'a'?
> 
> ghobe'.  <ponglIj 'oH nuq'e'> vImaS.
> 
well.. I was just referring to "as opposed to <<nuq 'oH ponglIj'e'?>>
I didn't realize you have a dislike for the nuq-as-pronoun sentence.

> ><<nuq 'oH targh'e'?>> jItlhobchugh, 'ej <<Ha'DIbaH 'oH.>> vIjanglu'chugh,
> >SoHvaD lugh'a' mu'tlheghvam?
> 
> lughbej.
> 
> ><<targh nuq?>> jItlhobchugh, 'ej <<targh 'oH targh be'>> vIjanglu'chugh,
> >SoHvaD lugh'a' je mu'tlheghvam?
> 
> <targh nuq> vImaSHa'.  <targh 'oH nuq'e'> bItlhobta'chugh,
> lughbej jangbogh mu'tlheghlIj.
> 
maj. vaj jIyajlaw'.

> >vaj SoHvaD lughbogh mu'tlhegh yIwIv:
> >
> >1: ghom'e' Delbogh wot nungbogh DIp tIn law'
> >   ghom'e' Delbogh DIp nungbogh wot tIn puS.
> >(SoHvaD lughlaw' mu'tlheghvam.)
> 
> pablaw', 'ach vIyajbe'.
> 
> "A group which is described by a noun that comes before a verb is bigger
> than a group which is described by a verb that comes before a noun."
> 
ai! What I _meant_ is "The set described by the noun preceding the verb
is bigger than the set described by the noun preceded by the verb."

I assumed that <DIp> was the more logical choice as subject of <Del>,
so I hoped I could avoid the double -'e'.

> >2: ghom'e' Delbogh DIp nungbogh wot tIn law'
> >   ghom'e' Delbogh wot nungbogh DIp tIn puS.
> 
> pablaw' je, 'ach vIyajbe' je.
> 
> This says the opposite of the previous sentence.  However, I don't know
> what you mean by either of them.
> 
essentially I'm asking, whether you believe the relationship between
Object (noun preceding the pronoun-as-verb) and Subject is the same
in Klingon and in English (in sentences like "A targh is an animal."
where "a targh" is the subject if I'm not mistaken).

In that case, you seem to see names as referring to a single "object"
(namely the label as such) not to the whole set of people that could
be referred to by it. And the noun "my name" refers to the whole set
of labels by which that person can be referred. qar'a'?

(English doesn't work this way always... I recently read a sentence of
the type "<name1>, <title>'s writer, is <name2>'s pseudonym." the 
descriptive "<title>'s writer" seems to indicate that <name1> refers to
an individual not a label, while the main sentence uses <name1> as a
reference to the label...)

> >..have to switch now...(both lang and topic(sic))
> >
> >what I don't like about putting nuq and 'Iv in subject position
> >is that Okrand describes the subject as being the topic "as for"
> >(TKD p. 68)
> >
> >thus <<ponglIj 'oH nuq'e'?>> sounds like "As for the what, it is
> >your name." to me... or "WHAT is your name."
> 
> Indeed, that's what it sounds like to me as well.  That's fine; it *is*
> what I want to ask.  Something is your name -- what is it?  I think the
> real problem is the way English turns the word order around when "to be"
> and a question word are used simultaneously, coupled with the fact that
> "to be" in English usually indicates equivalency.  I just don't see the
> same as being true in Klingon.  I think it's a lot like the "a square is
> a rectangle" usage, which doesn't mean the same thing when it's turned
> around.
> 
this could be described by saying "is a kind of" instead of "is".
is that what you mean?

so you don't find anything strange about <nuq'e' Dalegh?> or
<targh legh 'Iv'e'?> either? "As for the what, you see it." and
"As for the who, she sees the targh." don't sound right to me.
(or, if you prefer, "Who, and only who, sees the targh.",
"It is who (and not someone else) who sees the targh.",
"WHO sees the targh.", note that I didn't use question marks)

Maybe I just misunderstand the meaning of topic. Maybe if I knew
a "real" language with topic markers on question words...

                                           Marc Ruehlaender
                                           aka HomDoq
                                           [email protected]

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