tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Mon Jul 28 19:19:34 1997
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Re: -moH verbs as intransitive???
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>Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 16:06:41 -0700 (PDT)
>From: "Neal Schermerhorn" <[email protected]>
>
>ghItlh ~mark:
>
>>I'm sorry, Qermaq. You've really confused me. I don't see what the
>>problem is. Worried that chemoH means "create (v int)"? Uh, how can
>>create be intransitive? How is it possible to create without creating
>>something? If you're not creating anything, in what sense are you
>>creating?
>
>Confused or not, that just answered the question! The only reason I would
>accept chenmoH as an intransitive verb is (A) if the KLI says it is (which the
>New Word list says) and (B) the masters of the tongue (which include you, but
>not me) feel it is acceptable. It appears you agree that it makes no sense to
>call chenmoH intransitive.
I think we're still not getting through to one another. I don't know what
exactly charghwI' meant by marking it as intransitive, any more than ANY
Klingon verb can be used intransitively (though I contend that not all can
be used transitively, or if they can it's not clear what the "object" is).
I also don't see the difference between a verb that's transitive and
intransitive in this sense and a verb that's transitive that we get to use
intransitively (like all other transitive verbs).
>Your points are as usual correct and clear. The words 'eat' and *Sop* both can
>be used intransitively and transitively. I agree. And the English 'create'
>fits here too. But the Klingon *chenmoH* cannot simply because of the elements
>out of which it is formed. The word literally translates as 'cause to take
>form', not 'create' - that is a simplified gloss which fits much of the time,
>but not necessarily all. -moH makes a verb like Sop into SopmoH, and now the
>subject requires another party to cause to eat.
OK, "cause to take form". Let's work with that meaning. Obviously you
have to cause SOMETHING to take form, or what does this mean? Just as
creating implies something is created at some point, causing to take form
means something is caused to take form (I am not sure what the difference
is if any). Everything I said about "create" applies equally well to
"cause to take form," and everything about "Sop" applies just as well to
"chenmoH" and even to "SopmoH" (let's leave "je'"/feed out of this for
now). I can say "jISopmoH", meaning that I cause something to eat
something, just in general or unspecifiedly, with both "objects"
ellipsized.
>So, I still assume that calling ANY -moH verb intransitive is a no-no.
>jIchenmoH, I create, implies, as you have said, an object; or more precisely,
>an 'agent' for the subject to cause to act the verb - in the long run, it
>comes out the same. So even if I use a no-object prefix, chenmoH MUST be
>transitive.
The problem may be in what we choose to use the words to mean. charghwI'
likely meant "instransitive" to mean using with the unspecified objects (if
he didn't, I have no clue what the *meaning* of an intransitive "chenmoH"
could possibly mean. charghwI'?). Now, I probably wouldn't have done that
myself, since it's redundant to me, but it's HIS list and he gets to define
his terms as he likes. You're all bent out of shape because you're (very
possibly) using a different meaning of "intransitive" than charghwI' meant
when he wrote it. I think this is all a tempest in a teacup. After all,
what were you panicked about? The fact that charghwI' described {chenmoH}
as intransitive. Wait, you're upset about meaningless marks on a page?
No, obviously you're worried about what they mean. OK, what DO they mean?
What DOES charghwI' mean when he says that? It's THAT which you need to
make sure of and see if it bothers you, not the words in a document.
~mark
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