tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Thu Aug 08 15:55:27 1996

Back to archive top level

To this year's listing

[Date Prev][Date Next][Thread Prev][Thread Next]

Re: Klingon-American :(

In a message dated 96-08-08 11:52:14 EDT, you write:

> I noticed a while ago that American usage showed in the presence of
>  these two words from TKD:
>  
>  veng		city
>  vengHom		village
>  
>  Now, normally one has three graduations of settlement size..village,
>  town, city. So far as i can tell, Americans don't have towns...

We don't?  Hmmm . . . then I wonder where I've been living for the past ten
years?

>  they seem
>  to call everything a 'city', even what we British would call a 'town'
>  (like some of the smaller 'cities' in the States). Given the existence
>  of {vengHom} for 'village', it is logical that a large 'city' would be
>  {*veng'a'}. Given this presumption, a TKD translated into *British*
>  English would have the entries:
>  
>  veng		town
>  vengHom		village
>  veng'a'		city
>  
>  If you wanted to refer to a *large* city (London, as opposed to say
>  Glasgow), you would then say {veng'a' tIn}. This leaves {veng} for the
>  smaller American 'cities' (like say Athens or Little Rock) and keeps
>  {veng'a'} for the bigger ones (Atlanta?), and {veng'a' tIn} would be the
>  real large ones like San Francisco, LA, Denver, New York....

I don't your observation accurately describes Americans.  At least the ones I
know.  When *I* think of the word "city," I think of New York (but then, I
live an hour away from it by car).  Whenever I go on car trips, I pass
through "towns," not  "cities."

I don't think Okrand was concerned with such gradations.  He probably came up
with {veng}, and then asked himself, "how do you say 'village'?  Hmmm . . .
{vengHom}."
  
>  My second linguistic quibble is with the translation of {qa'vIn}.
>  Quoting HolQeD v4 n2 p7, it says "Okrand acknowledges that it is unclear
>  whether this obvious cognate refers to the beverage itself, or to the
>  prominence of 'caffeine' in the brew, or perhaps both at once."
>  
>  Given this stated uncertainty, it is clear that just using {qa'vIn} as a
>  translation for 'coffee' is both partially incorrect (as a case could be
>  made that {qa'vIn} refers to any caffeinated drink), it also reflects
>  the apparent American attitude that coffee=caffeine.

Yes, "coffee is caffeine" is definitely something American love to think
(actually, I hate the stuff), but I don't think "caffeine is coffee" is an
Americanism.  Many people I know (including myself) often drink soda (ie.
Coke, Pepsi, etc.) to get some caffeine.

I think the uncertainty in the word {qa'vIn} is due to two factors: first, it
sounds like both "coffee" and "caffeine," and second, that we do tend to
think "coffee is caffeine" (but not necessarily the other way around).

>  what I would propose, given the evidence of the article giving the word,
>  is that {qa'vIn} most accurately means 'caffeinated drink', with the
>  possible meaning of coffee

I don't think this conclusion can be drawn just yet (it was on the wish list
given to Okrand, though).

>  Has anyone else spotted any other Klingon words where the translation to
>  English shows an American linguistic bias?

As I recall, some other non-American Klingon speakers had to have the joke in
the word {qop} "arrest" explained to them.  I'm sure there are other
examples.

>  (I'm not trying to particularly get at American cultural presumptions,
>  just to draw attention to the fact that other people on this planet
>  would probably translate Klingon differently [read flexibly :) ])

I'd say that since TKD's word glosses were written by an American and
(originally) for Americans, that an American interpretation of the *English*
words will give the correct meaning in Klingon.  Think of it as calibration.
 The Klingon words have meanings in and of themselves without reference to
American, British, Australian, or what-have-you English.  However, you've got
to choose one to understand it, unless you're a native Klingon speaker (how
many of THOSE have you met recently?).  Marc Okrand used a form of American
English to write the dictionary, so this form has the correct interpretation
(by definition, since this is an artifical language).

SuStel
Stardate 96604.8

Back to archive top level