tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Fri May 19 12:16:13 1995
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Re: Beginner Help: Tolkien
> > Sorry if this should have a special prefix in the subject line, but I don't
> > know it.
>
> Anytime you want help from the Beginners' Grammarian, you can put "KLBC"
> in the subject line.
Ah yes.. thats it..
> > "Three rings for the elven kings under the sky"
> > Or should that be Elven Klings? :)
> >
> > I came up with
> > <chalbIngDaQ jelvnganche'wIpu'vaD wej Qebmey>
> >
> > <chalbIngDaQ> - area under sky
>
> "Under the sky" would be {chal bIngDaq}.
For some reason I just assumed the chal would join on [ :( ]
> > <jelvnganche'wIpu'vaD> I invented "jelvngan" to mean Elven, and used a
> > compound noun with che'wI - Elevn rulers??
>
> {jelv} seems to violate Klingon phonological rules - we don't see final
> consonant clusters like "lv". Also, since {ngan} means "inhabitant",
> {jelvngan} would seem to mean "an inhabitant of 'jelv'".
Again, if someone would explain why tlhIngan is used to represent the
klingon people who come from Qo'noS????
I take your point about 'lv' but I'm not an expert in phonological rules.. I
can barely say it. :)
> You don't need to form compound words unless you are creating a separate new
> word. {chalbIngDaq} and {jelvngnanche'wI'} would be like saying
> "underthesky" and "elvenrulers" in English.
I was thinking that seperating them would cause a noun-noun possessor-possed
rule to apply and it didn't make sense to me..
> Maybe a Tolkien scholar can confirm this, but I think the word for elf
> in Quenya is "elda", so perhaps you could use {*'elda'pu' che'wI'pu'}
> (the rulers of the Elves).
I haven't managed to read TLoTF concentrating as much as I really should've.
> Also there is nothing to indicate what rings and elven kings are doing
> "under the sky". This is the tricky part of translating poems, they
> play fast and loose with the language and the meaning may get lost in
> translation.
>
> I would use: chal bIngDaq taHbogh *'elda'pu' che'wI'pu'vaD wej Qeb.
Okay..
> Note that, like the original, this is not a grammatically complete
> sentence: it has no verb. If you wanted a complete sentece, you could
> end it with something like {tu'lu'} or {chenmoHta' *Sawron}.
Is there anything wrong with not using complete gramatical sentences.. what
I mean is, can you get away with it?
> > <wej Qebmey> - I'm fairly confident that this bit is right!?!
>
> When using numbers, plural suffixes are not needed, so you can simply say
> {wej Qeb}.
Hmm, again.. I forget the daftest things..
> > "Seven for the dwarf-lords in their halls of stone"
> > <naghvaSchajDaq Dwarghnganjawpu'vaD Soch>
>
> > <naghvaSmeychajDaq> - compund noun stone-hall +plural +their +in
>
> Here, I think the compound word "stonehall" might work okay but you could
> also say {nagh vaSmeychajDaq}.
Same problem as before.. thanks again..
> > <Dwarghnganjawpu'VaD> - again, I made up a word.. I didn't want to use
> > "very small men" coz I assumed that Tolkien was
> > meaning a more fantasy based people.. then theres
> > another compound noun.. dwarf-lords.
>
> Here, "dw" is another example of an initial consonant cluster which does not
> not appear in Klingon. Again, you don't need a compound word here.
Well I didn't know whether it was okay and I didn't think it mattered since
I was only attempting the translation for practice.
> > <Soch> - can I get away with just saying Seven for the Dwarf-etc.???
>
> Yes, numbers can be used by themselves. {Soch}, when used by itself, can
> mean "seven (of them)".
Glad I got something..
> > "Nine for mortal men doomed to die"
> >
> > I could only get <Hut teragnanpu'vaDbogh>.. Is this okay, I put the Hut
> > first because I had to use bogh.
>
> {-bogh} is a verb prefix and doesn't belong here. {tera'ngan} means
> "Terran" and can refer to any being inhabiting that planet. If you assume
> that "Terra" is the same planet as Middle-Earth, {tera'ngan} could refer
> to not only men, but elves, dwarves, hobbits, orcs, ents, etc. Since you
> are referring to "men" as a species, you would use {Human}.
I forgot about elves etc. here.. plus, I forgot to check if Human was in
TKD.
> I would say: {Humanpu' jubbe'vaD Hut} or {HeghlaHbogh Humanpu'vaD Hut}.
Oh I see. Again.. thank you.. one day I might actually put a sentence
together correctly.
> yoDtargh
Khalic