tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Tue Apr 25 20:19:06 1995
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Re: Prepositions
On Tue, 25 Apr 1995 [email protected] wrote:
> peHruS writes concerning various Federation Standard concepts such as 'of'
> and 'with'. Unfortunately, these are not FS concepts, but English (FS)
> 'words'. Words such as these (and most prepositions in general) can represent
> several different 'concepts'. I think he raises some good points and puts
> challenges before us to expand the 'conceptual' uses of <tlhIngan Hol>.
>
> peHruS said: moQHom Quj loDHom
> yoDtargh said: QujtaHvIS loDHompu' moQHom lo' chaH
> Neither of these gets across the point that the 'ball' is the purpose or
> action of the play.
> I would say: QujtaHmeH loDHompu' moQHom lo' chaH
Many people prefer the {-meH} construction because it directly links
using the ball with playing. The three most common ways I've seen the
instumental use of "with" expressed in Klingon are:
Quj moQHom lulo'bogh loDHompu'.
QujtaHvIS loDHompu' moQHom lo' chaH.
QujmeH loDHompu' moQHom lo' chaH.
> For 'The girls go with the boys to the store' yoDtargh says:
> Suy Daq lughoSDI' loDHompu' tlhej be'Hompu'.
>
> I would question whether <Suy Daq> should be one word or two. Generally (and
> I think this would hold for <tlh-H>) when a combination of nouns takes on a
> distinct or unique meaning apart from the individual words, it does (and
> should) become a single, compund noun. <Suy Daq> means 'the merchant's place
> or location' but doesn't mean his place of business. 'Store' is a distinct
> location defined by the activities of the merchant. However, <SuyDaq> could
> very easily be confused with the locative. Perhaps, <Suy malja' qach> or
> simply <malja'qach> or <Suyqach>.
I didn't use {SuyDaq} because of the ambiguity it would create. These
are all fine translations. I think charghwI's solution sounds best: just
use {Suy} by itself.
> I've noticed a definite trend toward analepsis, or using a noun first in a
> sentence and a pronoun which stands for it later in a sentence. The basic
> object-verb-subject structure is easy enough to grasp and use; however, when
> the sentences have relative phrases, where should the subject and/or object
> appear? And where should the pronouns which stand in their steads appear?
>
> Is <QujDI' (chaH) tlhejchuq loDHompu'> any less correct or clear than <QujDI'
> loDHompu' tlhejchuq (chaH)>?
Personally, I usually specify the noun where it first appears and use
pronouns or verb prefixes where it subsequently appears. To me it just
makes the sentence easier to read. But that's just my own personal
preference. I've seen many others do the opposite.
TKD states that when pronouns are used as nouns, they are not required,
they are used for emphasis or added clarity.
> I say that the reason lies in the ring not being on her finger. Therefore:
> leghDI' loD nItlhDajDaq Qeb tuQbe'taHmo' be' vay' nayta' 'e' Sovbe'.
>
> This previous statement is a perfect example analepsis and prolepsis:
> when MAN sees HER - because WOMAN isn't wearing a ring on her finger - HE
> doesn't know that SHE is married to someone.
I'm not a linguist: I don't know what analepsis and prolepsis are. All I
know is that this sentence is somewhat ambiguous. Much of the ambiguity
would be cleared up if you simple gave the names of the parties involved.
valQIS leghDI' matlh nItlhDajDaq Qeb tuQbe'mo' valQIS nayta' 'e' Sovbe'
matlh.
> The concepts of above, below, etc are pretty well described in TKD 3.4.
>
> <Dung> area above <'o'> area behind
> <bIng> area below <Huv> area outside
> <retlh> area beside <yoS> area around
> <'et> area in front
>
> I can't think of anything to represent the area INSIDE something. Ideas
> anyone? Because these ideas are nouns, they are generally used with the
> locative <-Daq>.
Besides simply using {-Daq}, the closest thing to "inside" is to use a
sentence with {ngaS}. Saying {mungaS Duj} would imply that I'm inside the
ship.
Instead of using {Huv} for "outside" and {yoS} for "around", I would
probably use {ngaSbe'} and {HopHa'} instead.
> Brad
yoDtargh