tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Tue Jun 28 12:48:31 1994
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Re: Why Klingon Poetry Does Too Rhyme (resend)
[One more time.... this is getting absurd!]
On Wed, 29 Jun 1994, Nick NICHOLAS wrote:
[stuff deleted with vigor throughout]
> In Esperanto, there is a lot of flexibility in changing around word
> order, you can get away with "la klingono mortigas la teranon", "mortigas la
> klingono la teranon", "la teranon mortigas la klingono", and so on, which
> really helps with the way that you can combine and recombine words. English,
> as we've all experienced, is more limited by structure, since the structure,
> to a fairly large degree, imposes meaning on the sentence. The S-V-O
> structure forces some kinds of words to come last, some of them to come
first.
> Thus, you can't rearrange the words as nicely, and get the nice rhymy ones to
> come last.
>
> The fact that Klingon syntax is restrictive should be no bar on rhyme, as
> proven by the not much less resrictive syntax of English (when compared to
> most languages on Earth), and indeed, as proven by my sonnets.
Aside from being more than a little snide (or cutesy, perhaps?), this
argument still doesn't hold water. I pointed out that you CAN rearrange
things in English, which you can't do in tlhIngan nearly as well. I didn't
say this was a complete bar to rhyme, just that it makes it not as easy to
do. I think that point still holds.
[stuff deleted]
> Klingon is not as sound limited as one may think, and there are languages
> (like Italian) which work rhyme with much more limited phonological resources.
> But the vocabulary is smaller, and this is a risk. Still, the fact that
> the Klingon lexicon and phonology is restrictive should be no bar on rhyme,
> as proven by Esperanto (although, granted, early Esperanto had some atrocious
> suffix rhymes), and indeed, as proven by my sonnets.
Repeat after me: It isn't a BAR on rhyme. I never said it was. It just
makes it harder and less natural, and therefore, in my opinion, less likely
to be used by Klingons.
> You underestimate the ingenuity of poets and translators. You also
> underestimate how insubstantial such tinkering (which I have to do regularly)
> is to the eventual meaning. As proven by my sonnets, and by my rhymes in
> _Much Ado_ and _Hamlet_. Rhymes that more or less maintain the meaning can
> almost always be found, and if that -ta' has led you up a blind alley, you
> make it a -pu', or you kill it, or you reorganise the subordinate phrases,
> or *something*. Here's an example:
[example deleted]
Just the sort of thing I don't think Klingons would do, though.
Adjusting... reorganizing... etc. etc... Adjusting a poem to have more
emotional impact, yes, I can see that happening. Adjusting it to fit
into iambic pentameter, I can't.
> Poetry is craft. This is as valid for free verse as it is for traditional
> verse; the poet working in free verse needs to have, if anything, an even
> more alert ear for sound and rhythm than the traditional poet --- and because
> people don't know this, there are shitloads of god-awful chopped-up prose
> being touted as poetry these days. Frankly, I don't give much of a damn if
> rhyme is out of fashion in English these days; stale old Modern English isn't
> what you should be looking at anyway, to appreciate the joy of new-found
> rhyme in a language that hasn't had it before. Look at Chaucer, at the
> late mediaeval religious and secular Latin songs, at Dante, at the Esperanto
> poets of the '20s. And if you think poetry can't be spontaneous, then turn
> away from this culture, and look at traditional cultures --- look at the
> couplet improvisers in my native Crete, part of a culture that has rather a
> lot to do with Klingon, and where they'd stab you as soon as look at you for
> being called sissies. You're measuring rhyme in Klingon by contemporary Anglo
> standards. Not valid.
I am NOT measuring rhyme in Klingon by contemporary Anglo standards. I'm
saying that rhyme is a tool, which you pick up when it suits you. Put
down when it doesn't. And in Klingon, it seems TO ME, that it would be a
pretty poor tool to use at the best of times.
And again, I am relating to what MY belief about Klingons would be. I
can't see them sweating out Shakespearean sonnets ... I
just can't. I can see, and agree that couplets might be something that
they would do. But entire sonnets or longer poetry? Not bloody likely.
>
> As proven by my sonnets. ;)
>
Ahem. Mighty proud of them sonnets, ain't we? {{:-)
> If Klingons were really aliens, believe you me, they would not be speaking
> a language that follows every one of Greenberg's universals save the OVS one.
> If Klingons were really aliens, they would not be humanoids, they would not
> carry on about honour like a bunch of neurotic samurai, they would not be
> talking in American accents on TV shows, etc. etc. Let's face it. Klingons
> are our constructs; we imposed our views on them *ab initio*. The whole
> *point* of Klingons is to be a reflection of parts of humanity Roddenberry
> might have distanced himself from, but we don't. Or do you think there is
> anything *new* about the Klingon code of honour?
They may reflect us and some values we want to explore, but that doesn't
mean that they use the exact same
kind of rhyme scheme that we've been using for hundreds of years. I think
the Star Trek universe can handle a little diversity among types of poetry.
And that is what is fun about Klingon to me... it can be used to express
things in a way, and from a point of view that hasn't been done before.
The fact that there are a LOT more similarities than there would be in
"real life" only makes me want to be MORE creative, make it MORE exotic,
not confine it to a tool ill-suited for the purpose because that is what
we are used to, or appreciate in our own tongues.
> And of course, just because rhyme is 'dead' in *your* culture (and artists
> from Cole Porter to Metallica prove there's life in it yet), doesn't mean
> it can't be exciting and fresh when applied to a new language. Which is what
> Hol is. And live a little? I tell you: read the sonnets, and *then* tell me
> they're dead. (And then read the Hecuba speech too, because, after everything
> I've said, I do believe alternatives to rhyme should be explored.)
>
Ahem. Assuming a few things, aren't we? I happen to love poetry. Hell,
I love rhyming poetry, in English, which IS much more suited to it than
Klingon is. I might even like rhyming poetry in Klingon. But again, I
want to emphasize that rhyme is just ONE tool.. There are many, many
types of rhyme, and I am likely to want to explore some that I have
never used, or seen or heard, but which GRAB me, in Klingon ... I just don't
want to see limits where none need exist... boundaries where there is no
call for them.
> Now, given that you argued that Klingons are too spontaneous to rhyme, I
> find it much more incredible that they would sit down and count 5-7-5
> syllables; but that's beside the point. If you think rhyme is a neat bundle
> that can be used by anyone, then (1) you haven't read enough badly rhymed
> poetry; (2) you haven't read enough *well*-rhymed poetry. Rhyme is no
> different to metre, syllable counts, tonal patterns in Chinese, complex
> Classical metres, or alliteration (apart from it merely being out of fashion
> in your culture). These are all an imposition of order, using finite resources.
> Sure, anyone can stumble across and use them. So why isn't *everyone* doing
> it? Because it requires skill, and flexibility, and bravado. This holds for
> rhyme as much as suffix types, and number of suffixes, and the time of day,
> and the phase of the moon.
Ahem. Boy, you really like to make those assumptions, don't you?
(1) Counting to 5 isn't hard. Even Klingons can do it, most of the time.
(2) Again, I'm not talking about any particular language fad, or lack
thereof. And I have read plenty of rhyming poetry that I have enjoyed.
Plenty that was bad, too. What does that have to do with the fact that I
just don't think Klingon is well-suited for rhyming? Have you ever expressed
extremely technical jargon in Spanish? Sure you can do it... but it goes
against the grain of the language. Spanish is meant for music and love
poetry, undying expressions of heartfelt passion, and has a structure and
a sound which is well suited for that. English is flexible,
tricky, and is well suited for rhyme. Klingon is neither of the above.
Why try to force it to do that which it isn't MADE to do? Why not
explore with it to do things that it DOES do?
>
> =Perhaps a possible compromise would be to use rhymes for those works
> =which rhymed in English, and are being translated, since that would be a
> =sensible use of Klingon rhyme, giving them a taste of what an English
> =poem would be like. But I have to, personally, abhor the notion of
> =English rhymes in Klingon poems ... Klingon is far too pretty to limit
> =this way.
>
> As you please; I won't tell you how to write poetry. Personally, I abhor
> the notion of Klingon poetry being merely chopped up verse, but I don't
> think anyone's been guilty of that here. (I haven't read much of your verse,
> Drujiv; I know David Barron's stuff in HolQeD was effective.)
Well... It's been around, though I haven't been writing in a longish time
(blame law school!) and I do plan to get active again once the bar has
been passed.
After all is said and done, I'm still glad that you are writing Klingon
poetry, either in translation or however you're doing it. I just want
people on the list, perhaps those thinking of trying their own hand at
it, to not fall into the rhyming type of thing *without thinking*.
You've made several good points, and I know neither of us will change the
other's mind. But you have thought it through. I think that is the
major point that I am hoping to make.
> Nick, who will keep on rhyming.
>
DrujIv, who won't.